How (post) punk is post-punk, really?

xps but can you see why a guy who played in Quiet Sun would have that thought when hearing The Clash for the first time after such a buildup of "punk" in the music press as something new and radical and different? probably my fault for paraphrasing, the whole quote provides more context.

Dolls vs. Aerosmith is an interesting thought in terms of similarities!

I think the term "art punk" would have been better than what stuck. DIY without populist ambitions.

Is the thesis here that the sounds we associate with post-punk would have come along even if 77 punk hadn't revved up glam and pub rock? Probably!

New York dolls were a band directly covering r'n'b numbers in a pretty untutored way hence straight mutation of . Comparisons i've seen from the time are to early 60s rolling Stones etc.
BUt their innovations are in incorporating a ramshackle element as a working part of their sound and may be what punk picked up from.

Also I think sped up Chuck berry is probably more shorthand for various r'n'b stylings rather than necessarily a purist comment on him as the model.

xp
I think I actually say "arty punk" when I reference those bands IRL

There's one cover version out of eleven songs on the Dolls' first album. They did more on the second album, yes.

their innovations are in incorporating a ramshackle element as a working part of their sound

Disagree that this summarizes their innovations.

there was post-punk already in the 60s. the whole British Invasion was basically an early punk revival: you had the garage rock scene as direct response, embracing DIY & the roughness and drive of early rock. soon psychedelics took over and there was plenty of experimentation.

imo The Monks are perhaps the best example of a 60s post rock band. they are a sort of postmodern prefab band a la The Monkees but with a weird twist. their music is all chord progressions/lyrics stripped down to extreme minimalism, simplistic pop deconstructed down to absurdity.

timellison otm itt, except when he disagreed with me.

New Wave always smacked of what the larger corporate labels wanted to call things so i always associate it with the more watered down bands. Post-punk at its best remains pretty intense.

― Stevolende, Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:09 PM (thirty-two minutes ago)

This is the sort of nonsense that I hate. "Post-punk = valid artistic statement, new wave = sell out music." Meanwhile, the term new wave is what was used at the time to describe everyone from the Ramones to Devo to the Human League. "Post-punk", as near as I can tell, is a term that was created after the fact to segregate the quote en quote "COOL, GOOD BANDS" from the quote en quote "CRAP, POP BANDS." It's an elitist form of labeling that relies on how cool a band is in retrospect and it's an unproductive, regressive train of thought.

First time I was aware of the term New Wave was via this Sire records sampler from 1977: Talking Heads, Voidoids, Dead Boys and Saints. Nothing watered down at all.

https://img.discogs.com/m-mjEWGWJC9xuSjO0bjRb8SJviA=/fit-in/300x300/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-1380531-1465599513-3026.jpeg.jpg

https://pictures.abebooks.com/isbn/9780684179445-us.jpg

(^ that was as late as 1983)

I think I'll just keep the distinction that I have for the last 35 or whatever years.

Yeah, revisionism is awesome.

I love pretty much all this music, but have never been good at sorting it into buckets. A friend of mine said New Wave was just rock music with asymmetrical haircuts, and I'm not sure how much I disagree. I love a lot of music that generally gets called post-punk, New Wave, and synthpop, but my liking it generally predates knowing what to call it.

I think I'll just keep the distinction that I have for the last 35 or whatever years.

[citation needed]

"we're not a punk rock band we're a new wave band". 1979 fwiw

So you've got a band that you haven't named or shown the context for saying that.
& it shows what?

New Wave will always smack to me of what mainstream labels thought they could market at the time including rebranding bands as.
Always seems like stylized skinny tie, weird haircut etc wearing stuff. Which is not what I would be looking for at the time or since.

You got something against stylized skinny ties, weird haircuts etc wearing stuff or what?

sorry, that was the Dead Kennedys and they were being ironic. agreeing with you Stevo, new wave was being called "sellout" back in the 70s

My favourites are when bands who were around before or during punk are described as post punk.

"Pink Flag" is a post punk album - yeah, right, sure it is.

I always thought of post punk as slits, raincoats etc

Am I missing something

Young marble giants

Yeah, same for bands like This Heat or Chrome.

(NB: I like a lot of so-called sellout new wave music, I'm just commenting on the supposed revisionism)

xps

I am not currently able to download the linked comp but what I know of it ably demonstrates that art-rock existed before punk and that art-rock was one of the strands that post-punk* drew on. Again, the bits of the comp I know don't make much of a case that art-rock was drawing much on reggae / funk / Afrobeat before punk, which I think was one of the defining features of what we call post-punk (NB not exclusively).

*I wouldn't get too fixated on the "post-" in the generic name; I assume it was a reference to post-modernism, and goodness knows there are works which display the defining characteristics of the "post modern" dating back to the 18th century. Genre names are shorthandy and lines between genres are never as hard as the names imply.

I assume it was a reference to post-modernism

When did certain types of music start to be called post-punk? ? As you say, 'postmodern' cultural artefacts exist well before the 20th-Century, never mind the 1970s, but the current meaning of the term really only became common currency in the 1980s w/ Baudrillard etc (Lyotard's Postmodern Condition, which is maybe the nearest thing to a foundational text for po-mo, was only translated into English in 1984).

So I'm sceptical of your metanarrative here Tim :-)

Well I did say I assume! :)

According to Wikipedia the origin is late 70s UK rock press but there's some dispute as to who coined it, claimants including Jane Suck, Jon Savage and Paul Morley. Each of whom would have likely been aware of the crit-theory coinage, post-structuralism and so on. Anyway it's quite possible that there's no relationship, my point about worrying too much about the literal meaning of generic names stands. Turns out the fauvists weren't actually wild beasts at all, etc.

Certainly wouldn't be surprised if Morley had called Dollar, say, 'postmodern' - all surface no meaning, signifiers but no signified, a pastiche of pop etc. Seems a more appropriate fit with the theory than eg This Heat, whose music is obviously deeply committed to meaning, the 'truth', and so on.

Hi,

I'd say that Post-Punk started with Magazine.

Ta.

Ward, I was trying to get at the fashion in genre-naming (or tendency-naming) rather than talking about the content of the actual art. But I agree with what you say.

post-punk is everything in this book

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WN54CDA7L._SX316_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

My intereest in this thread and the mix wasn't to denigrate punk, so apologies if that's what came across. Rather, I wanted to propose that post-punk is more significantly related to a sustained tradition that pre-dates punk, and to see how some of the music that always made me think that sounds together, if it holds up as a "post-punk-like" listening experience.

I hear Pere Ubu's "Heart of Darkness" or Kraftwerks "Antenna" or certainly Rixy's "For Your Pleasure" or Talking Heads '75 demos and it's the sounds of post-punk, well before 70s punk. The name thing isn't a big deal obviously, but it is a curiosity since I can't think of a less accurate genre name that stuck so firmly.

I guess "art rock" comes as close as any commonly used umbrella term?

For the record, I'm a big-tent definer of post-punk, and Simon Reynold's books (along with my '1981' box that came out concurrently) captures most of what it means to me. Which might explain why I see it as such a tendrilled beast and not particularly indebted to the boundry-defining tendencies of punk.

Also:

aesthetics, the ethos, the production values, etc. of post-punk (by which I mean Family Fodder as much as Joy Division, Raincoats as much as Gang of Four) were already being expressed almost fully-formed as early as the late 60s.

You could argue that the ethos, production values etc of punk were being expressed as early as the mid-60s - so maybe we're all good! I am being facetious obv but if Brian Eno's post-punk then the Sonics or whoever are punk.

My point being (again) that genre-naming is a matter of shorthand, drawing an always-imaginary line around stuff you want to talk about, rather than anything that will convey a literal truth or a clear artistic divide..

pere ubu def feels the most like pre punk post punk of any band

Proof that postpunk game before punk is that “Dairymaid’s Lament” comes six tracks earlier than “The Jewels of the Madonna.”

(That would have been a good joke if I had proofread it!)

I will still stick with new wave. Side one, track one of the mix posted is peak new wave aesthetic, several months before punk was even relevant.

So, yeah: new wave is what it is.

camberwell now is so post-punk they're prog (QUIET SUN). PiL is so post-punk their lead guitarist roadied for steve howe, and their bass player emulated holger czukay

xp I'm fine with you dying on that hill of wrongness

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_wave_music

New wave differs from other movements with ties to first-wave punk as it displays characteristics common to pop music, rather than the more "artsy" post-punk.

ha whenever i think of the term "new wave" i think of this book that i got in 10th grade 82 and it informed a relatively isolated kid in CT about british music i had little idea about.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41FWiAnsavL._BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
all i really remember from it was him sorta laughing at pop presence of the police and the excellence of the beat.

PiL is so post-punk their lead guitarist roadied for steve howe

... the guy that formed the Clash with Mick Jones.

didn't lydon sell acid outside of hawkwind shows?

Even Boiled Beef & Carrots Steve Jones and Paul Cook called their pre-Sex Pistols band after a Roxy Music track, so Punkers all be about Chuck Berry & Buddy Holly and Post Punkers they love the art-rock doesn't quite wash.

van der graaf generator were punk as fuck. just as lydon

Always seems like stylized skinny tie, weird haircut etc wearing stuff. Which is not what I would be looking for at the time or since.

― Stevolende, Wednesday, June 20, 2018

yeah Sid Vicious and Exene Cervenka sure dressed in top formal wear on stage

Soft machine were pretty punk no

There is no shortage of musicians who decided upon hearing the Sex Pistols or the like that punk meant they didn't have to be a virtuoso to get up on stage and play.

This can't be a controversial statement.

Didn't the Sex Pistols cover Substitute?

Indeed they did.

Pete Townshend definitely did have classical influences and aspirations though: https://petetownshend.net/musicals/music-of-the-spheres-the-orchestral-music-of-pete-townshend. John Entwistle’s parents, both musicians, gave him and sent him to music lessons. He played French horn in a youth orchestra and then was playing some kind of wind instrument in a trad jazz band. Moonie, as well as The Ox. was a certain kind of chops monster, and all four of them were able to do those four part Beach Boys harmonies on occasion ( The Ivy League only sang backing vocals on “I Can’t Explain”). So, instrument smashing and attitude aside, The Who don’t quite qualify as proto-punks.

Wait I just watched video of "Substitute" from Monterey Pop and I take it back about the singing harmony.

Sweet, punks vs. mods redux.

http://britpopnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/mods-vs-rockers.jpg

There is no shortage of musicians who decided upon hearing the Sex Pistols or the like that punk meant they didn't have to be a virtuoso to get up on stage and play.

This can't be a controversial statement.

I wasn't even arguing this as much as I thought it was funny to take literally the idea that a degree in music theory was a requirement to form a band pre-punk. "Classical aspirations" and "parents sent him to music lessons" are not exactly the same thing as "having a degree in music theory" ftr.

B-b-but was it in fact meant literally?

I wonder what Harlan Ellison RIP™ would have had to say about this issue.

my takeaway from ‘rip it up and start again’ was that post punk wasn’t really a thing at the time and the narrative was revisionistically pieced together after new wave by critics tracing influences backward (proto new wave??) through all the different weirdo scenes. so i agree with the thesis of the thread, also mix in the OP looks killer

B-b-but was it in fact meant literally?

Probably not

I'm old enough to remember the era and I don't recall people talking about "post-punk". I've always assumed that was a naming after the fact. "New wave" these days seems to mean late seventies skinny tie pop-rock, like Joe Jackson or something, but my feeling that is that it was a broader term back then and encompassed what we now call post-punk. In this interview for instance Ian Curtis includes Bauhaus as one of the "new wave" bands he likes: http://www.post-punk.com/happy-birthday-58th-birthday-ian-curtis/

Also Bowie referencing the "new wave boys" on Scary Monsters - around the time he was also referencing bands like Joy Division in interviews

and recruiting the blitz kids for video

Not sure if this is the place to put this, but 15 years after I started making the '1981' post-punk box set, I've finally tackled 1980:

https://musicophilia.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/folder.jpg?w=1024

https://musicophilia.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/Post-Punk-1980_GIF_Medium.gif?w=624&zoom=2

Eight themed mixes, 147 artists, plus a "sampler" mix--streaming or download these days, alas no physical boxes anymore. Artists include:

A Certain Ratio · Animals & Men · The Associates · Au Pairs · Bauhaus · The Beat · The Blackouts · Blondie · Blancmange · David Bowie · Bow Wow Wow · The Boys Next Door · Glenn Branca · The Breakers · Buggles · Buzzcocks · The Cars · Chris Carter · Alex Chilton · Chrome · Colored Minds · The Comsat Angels · Elvis Costello & The Attractions · The Cramps · The Cure · Dalek I · Delta 5 · Deutsch Amerikanische Freundshaftt · Devo · The Diagram Brothers · Din a Testbild · Doctor Mix & The Remix · Dome · Dow Jones & The Industrials · The Durutti Column · Essendon Airport · Factrix · Fad Gadget · Family Fodder · The Feelies · Final Program · Fire Engines · Flowers · Flying Lizard · Free Agents · Friction · John Foxx · Peter Gabriel · Gang of Four · Girls At Our Best · The Gist · The Go-Go’s · The Gordons · Half Japanese · The Human League · Husker Du · Ike Yard · Implog · Indoor LifeIn Camera · INXS · The Jam · Japan · Grace Jones · Josef K · Joy Division · Kid Creole & The Coconuts · Killing Joke · Krisma · Lizard · Ludus · Magazine · Manicured Noise · Marilyn · Martha & The Muffins · Material · Minutemen · Missing Persons · Mission of Burma · Mr. Partridge · Moderne · The Mo-Dettes · The Monchrome Set · Pauline Murray & The Invisible Girls · MX-80 Sound · Nasmak · Neonbabies · New Musik · Colin Newman · Gary Numan · Iggy Pop · The Only Ones · Orange Juice · Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark · Our Daughter’s Wedding · Pink Military · Pink Section · Plastics · Polyrock · Poly Styrene · The Pop Group · Pretenders · Prince · Psychedelic Furs · Pylon · Reptile Ranch · Martin Rev · Reversible Cords · Rinder & Lewis · The Room · Roxy Music · Ryuichi Sakamoto · The Selecter · Simple Minds · Siouxsie & The Banshees · The Slits · Smokey · Sods · Soft Cell · The Sound · The Specials · Squeeze · Richard Strange · The Stranglers · Swell Maps · Talking Heads · Teardrop Explodes · Television Personalities · Telex · This Heat · Tuxedomoon · Ultravox · Units · Urban Verbs · Les Vampyrettes · The Vapors · Alan Vega · Virgin Prunes · Visage · Scott WIlk & The Wall · Wipers · Xex · XTC · Yello · Y Pants · Yellow Magic Orchestra · Young Marble Giants

Check it out, spread the word, and buy lots or records from it! Thanks all!

https://musicophilia.wordpress.com/2019/01/01/post-punk-1980-box-set/

Thanks! Your obsessions seems to match mine - but you've got better energy and drive.

Btw it took me a while to work out how to stream each of the mixes on Mixcoud, rather than download the whole caboodle, but I may be behind the curve in my online skills.

Huh. I never would have guessed that Love Will Tear Us Apart would fade so seamlessly into We Got The Beat until I heard it.
Loving these mixes.

Vivien Goldman of late 70s early 80s postpunk fame, plus a critic, author and Professor, has a new album Next Is Now

New wave argument upthread is fun because you can continue on the proto/punk/post confusion onward into new wave/synthpop/etc. (and probably infinity) - when I was a kid it was too late for 1980 Blondie or Talking Heads to still be getting radio play but Tears for Fears and Depeche Mode would and the DJs were calling them new wave.

I somehow missed the news about the Vivien Goldman so thanks for that. Enjoying it.

Yea, I enjoy some of it , though am not hearing anything as good as Launderette yet

no, no Private Armies either, but her voice is still as adorable as ever and I will purchase. Substitute remained in my head afterwards.

Have learned that the melodies and lyrics are largely all Vivien Goldman but she let Youth create the tracks and they then collaborated to finalize them.

nobody really knows what's what when the thing's happening. even 'punk' was hardly ever 'punk.' there was the magazine 'punk' and a greasy trashy sort of scene that sort of vaguely accreted to it, and the scene was very arty and art-adjacent from the get go, improvised-ramshackle and yet exquisitely presented. I mean, forget prog, Ramones s/t was the ultimate make-believe concept album of the 70s.

And if you look at the LA scene, the bands playing in Chinatown or at the Masque (Middle Class, X) you can't slice that sucker into punk/post-punk no matter how hard you try. 'Punk' in SoCal really didn't get sonically and aesthetically codified until *after* 'punk', when it shifted away from Hollywood weirdos of all kinds and became a boys-only thing in the suburbs and beach towns, giving us hardcore.