the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

i wonder if there people in the wings who could step forward and keep going in the same direction, minus all the awful old shit like this that the party seems incapable of dealing with

The problem is that the longer this goes on the more it will be used to undermine the whole direction - that's unlikely given other factors but there is a sliver of possibility.

One of the reasons this is so exasperating is that for every anti-semitic old lefty twat on the ballot there's a good, principled, non-dick of a left-wing candidate that didn't didn't make it. It undermines the whole project.

as a 2016 entryist, I don't really make any connection with these 4chan numpts and the rise of Corbyn, but I don't go very deep into internet arsehole studies tbf!

Tbh, I strongly suspect the wing of the party making the most noise about this wouldn’t see a substantial difference between the older/crank-ier eighties throwbacks like Jackie Walker and the savvier, younger leftists coming through - when it comes to the danger their pose to Britain’s international standing or, at least to some extent, their relationship to antisemitism.

A huge part of why this has been such an issue, imo, is that the ‘anti-imperialist’, campus-organising, pro-BDS, etc youth wing are, as things stand, seen as the future of the party and that’s much scarier for them than Jackie Walker not being kicked out quickly enough, or w/e.

this is what i wrote!
the basic fact of trolling and false-flag accounts being set up online by opponents (and by ch4nner-type nihilists)

it's possible that *all* the nihilists -- as opposed to *many* of the nihilists of a *particular* generation -- have gone earnestly alt-right fulltime, and that e.g. every single channer tankie account is therefore a false flag: i actually doubt this, i think some are entirely "serious"* abt their stalinism as well as their lulz, and that some are just dicking around on their own time w/o allegiance, but very nearly all of the problem is it's very hard if not impossible to tell by ordinary online means

(and it's the last bit that's a new and highly problematic issue)

shorter me: every time there is an internal faction fight on-line (in whatever context), there are ppl fanning the flames of that fight who are not internal to the fight, driven by a variety of flavours of malice

nihilist is a centrist slur

Yeah that seems like a good and thoughtful piece, a drop of common sense that will pass unheeded into a sea of absolute fucking idiocy

(bcz i am insane i used to spend a lot of time reading the socialist unity comments threads long long before the current pass)

poll: y/n most ppl have never heard of 4chan, gamergate or any of the subdivisions of the labour party

but very nearly all of the problem is it's very hard if not impossible to tell by ordinary online means

I remember the case of Barry Stanton - the man whose photo was used was actually a labour voter and was very upset at what the account was used for. I don’t necessarily disagree but for some it goes way beyond Corbyn - even when he has condemned trolling etc people have carried on doing so. I think for a lot of people the fact of being part of a group provides cover for doing things they’d never do alone. There is also the fact that Corbyn has been fighting back since his election and people have latched onto the whole siege mentality. When you have had the party literally going through twitter accounts to block people from voting for Corbyn, it’s going to be difficult to break through that mentality as well.

There’s also the fact that people in incredibly difficult circumstances see Corbyn as someone who can materially change things for them and so are protective in a way they would perhaps not be with others. Idk, the whole thing is a mess.

deems in the past this is a line i have generally taken as a defence of corbs's leadership approach: he is unflappable in the face of media and online monstering and quietly behaves as if a three-day outrage will blow over in three days -- and mostly they do! in general it is (or has been) a strength: the pull the tabs and broadsheets have is greatly diminished even from two years ago, and continuing to diminish, and his immediate foes internal and external have no better command of online than he does

but every politician who has a strength will one day be undone by that strength

poll: y/n most ppl have never heard of 4chan, gamergate or any of the subdivisions of the labour party

y, obv. but this stuff is in part the hidden foundations of political edifices that people do see, the online alt-right and it's connection to Trumpism being the most obvious

A fair point from mark - I'd day that some folk have a great love in their heart for yelling at women and jews, and some marry that (and some always have) with a great commitment to a socialist future. But at mark says, you can't actually tell them apart (so could we just chuck the lot of them?)

left threatens their lulz

Some of the left more than others, mind. Though yes it is very odd (and a little lulzy) to pin this to a movement with Jeremy Corbyn at the top rather than the Chapo boys.

there are anti-Semites and cranks and bigots in Labour's 500,000+ membership. they need to be booted out, and fast. but there are others who say they're Labour members falsely and who are adding to the problem - tweeting abuse. not everyone is who they claim to be online. pic.twitter.com/dhFvVmlfRg

— Michael Segalov (@MikeSegalov) July 31, 2018

As of today, Jeremy Corbyn's length of tenure as Leader of the Labour Party has surpassed that of Gordon Brown

— Mr Memory (@AmIRightSir) July 31, 2018

I think Corbyn comes by his anti-racist bona fides naturally and part of anti-racism is keeping your damn mouth shut and listening to the people who feel aggrieved, not to discount their concerns but to develop understanding, before responding.

I wrote before I read the Novara article - it's what I'd have liked to have said (though I would have to stop and think before agreeing with their disagreements with the IHRA)

xp so why didn’t he involve Jewish groups in the drafting of the code? They still could have disagreed and it would have shown a lot more humility and understanding. The moment I heard the JLM and others had been left out of the debate, it was obvious it was going to turn out badly and it deserved to.

fwiw, the JLM was consulted before the code was published but there is a dispute over whether the people spoken to had the power to act on behalf of the wider group and exactly what they agreed. Either way, it’s described as a “red line” issue for their leadership and they’ve threatened to sue the party if the IHRA guidelines are not approved without amendment. This isn’t an issue that could have been negotiated away, however badly Formby, etc may have handled it.

Which is ironic, considering the modification of the examples was done in part to make them watertight legally in the event of legal action from members who face expulsion or suspension.

What a broigus...

broigus - what an absolutely ace word, gonna start using that one!

Jeremy Newmark, who re-founded the JLM and is their chair / primary spokesman, has a long history with the exact issue Labour can’t square - whether calls to boycott Israel, or focus a greater attention on the occupation of Palestine than, say, Morocco’s position in Western Sahara, are inherently antisemitic. He sincerely believes they are and that the IHRA guidance backs this up.

He was involved in the legal action brought by the Academic Friends Of Israel against the University and College Union claiming that their support of a boycott of Israel amounted to harassment of Jewish professors. The case was dismissed, and Newmark specifically criticised by the judge for lying.

There is fundamentally no way to make everyone happy with this. The split in the party is intractable. Labour fudging it a bit by requiring evidence of intent before certain criticisms of Israel are determined to be antisemitic, while others are determined to be inherently antisemitic, is probably the best they could do but it’s never going to be signed off by everyone however they went about it.

Pretty much yeah. You can say there are some old cranks (and yer Trots) fucking up for the rest of the movement but the young ones will shout next time an Israeli kills Palestinians and more shit will be made of it. Still though between this and "Stockpiling/army in the streets post-no deal Brexit" this version of the silly season is off to a cracking start!

Careful - I can hear xyzzzz starting up his chainsaw

― imago, Tuesday, 31 July 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Its guillotine get it right - and with any luck it'll be coming for you and you only.

This seems like a far more important story, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45021520.

Hate to be a snowflake but that's not dissimilar to a death threat

Anyway, whatever. The harmless back-and-forth of online discourse!

http://bricksafe.com/files/Mestari/Guillotine/1DSC04004.JPG

Would that all of ILX’s politics discussions proceed in Lego only

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-hosted-event-likening-israel-to-nazis-6sb5rqd5x

Lol

I'm thrilled with what Corbyn has started, but someone else might have to finish it? Someone trve kvlt and versed in Project Momentum obv, nobody with even a hint of centrism let alone Blue Labour, but also someone who might prove harder to attack? Our own Ocasio-Cortez, if you will? IDK I'm drunk

The lol was for Robespierre over there :D

"Who in history but Robespierre is specifically disliked for his virtue?"

Love 2 attack Corbyn for hosting an Auschwitz survivor

Not very keen on seeing Imago threatened to be beheaded, lego style or not tbh.

idk, he could do with not beginning with 'I' all the time tbh

idnr ever actually threatening ilxors with death, just that i hoped it happened or would be glad when it had

seems bad

how many voters are centrists btw

"Who in history but Robespierre is specifically disliked for his virtue?"

Yes, lay off Maximilien.

Not very keen on seeing Imago threatened to be beheaded, lego style or not tbh.

― lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 31 July 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

He loves the attention, don't worry about his crocodile tears - drunk and chatting thrash straight away.

"The world dislikes Robespierre and Saint Just, not because of what they said but because they intended what they said. Complete sincerity is thought a crime." (these are from Ian Hamilton "Robespierre did nothing wrong" Findlay)

the world dislikes robespierre because he got what he wanted but just kept chopping necks

he had 0 chill

iirc Robespierre probably was having a mental health crisis by the end?

apparently he was suffering from a quite severe case of sarcoidosis (possibly confirmed by his death mask) by the time of his execution. Yezhov was a more extreme example of "this job of killing thousands every day - is just killing me".

Pretty unfair that he should cop the blame, a lot of the worse excesses were carried out by the men who ended killing him - that's why they killed him.

at what stage dyou think youse all will have taken the fanboying for the murderers on *your* team a touch far

He's the original Centrist, the right and the left combined to off him.

can't help feeling some love for people that murdered lots of landed gentry.