the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

weirdly stubborn

i keep going back to this but his stubbornness is closely connected to how he's learned over a lifetime in politics to steer away from vituperetive splits (which are endemic on the far left) -- and therefore not weird, in the sense that it has actually to date (medium- and long-term) served him well. i absolutely think they should have got in ahead of this problem earlier, but with the best will in the world this can only have meant between the election last year and now, and whenever it was confronted it was always going to lead to something like this

In light of the awful new legislation passed through Israel, is it not reasonable to say “it’s fine to criticise the government and it should be done” while drawing a firm line across the kind of people who use Israel’s atrocities to harass Jewish people in this country?

Corbyn agrees with you. The harrassment applies to a small minority in the Labour membership. The baggage doesn't apply to Corbyn himself but the range of people in the left he is able to connect with so they become Labour Party members.

Pressed submit early:

This purity test bullshit is just that. Are you just casually saying that the ongoing nonsense - putting aside factional and opposing motives and arguments not made in good faith - will blow over without any damage? Because that’s not true and hugely dismissive.

Its not a purity test. iirc OJ went concern trolling when he should've used his brain. He's shut up since the election, apologised and even hung out with Alastair Campbell for his sins! You go ahead and read his column. Waste your time with that.

Sounds like you’ve got me pretty bang to rights there. Absolutely those were the points that I was making.

xxxp I'm going to have to ask you to have another go at the second sentence there - as it is, it reads as "there aren't a lot of left-wing Jews so *shrug*"

If you mean that it's fine because the anti-semites aren't a large enough group, they are still larger than zero, and growing. I've always been one of the first to make the point that the longer you've been involved in left-wing politics, the longer you've seen the right use the left's natural position on Palestine as a stick to beat us with. But there's a councillor in Bognor Regis half Corbyn's age posting on Facebook about executing blood-drinking Jews - that seems like a reasonable sign that enough is fucking enough.

Yes, and a lot of the angriest people on this are the natural allies, the left wing Jewish members and voters and commentators, and they are upset because they’ve had Corbyn’s back on so much and yet this he can’t deal with.

From what I see twitter Left Jewish Labour haven't abandoned Corbyn but they have been erased in these debates.

That’s not the issue, have they abandoned him. Should it have to get to that point? Look at the timeline of any of the people who have defended him, just utter shit from both supporters and opponents both. Do you think that any of these people want to be talking about antisemitism constantly?

It will always get to that point because of Corbyn's pro-Palestinian politics, that's ultimately what's driving this. Removing him isn't going to stop the next leader getting attacked in some way.

Corbyn and many on the left are anti-imperialists and as I said a bit above, because the conversation isn't carried out in good faith it will always get to that point and it will be constant because the groups raising it basically don't want to pay tax.

This is really just trolling now, right? Who would read mentions of people defending Corbyn who share most of his views (including on Palestine) and conclude that the problem was tax dodgers?

Everyone seems to have forgotten Ed Miliband was criticized for being anti-Israel and the worst Labour leader for the Jewish community ever etc etc etc.

Everyone seems to have forgotten Ed Miliband

could have stopped there tbf

the reason for taking action isn't to reduce or deflect media criticism, bcz this won't happen (bcz too much of it is in bad faith)

it is to place labour in an unimpeachable *rhetorical* position when it comes to tackling racism in general, and to build cross-community support: at the moment it is clearly more vulnerable than it wants to be to the usual media whataboutery, and this can be leveraged beyond places where it's ignorable (the telegraph, the spectator) just by constant squall

gyac's point abt loyal corbyn supporters left in horribly over-exposed positions right now, attacked by both side, is pertinent bcz it can and will exhaust and deplete in-party support. i continue to think that something very much like this would have taken place had this been firmly addressed say 12 months ago, and this trial-by-fire was always coming. obviously i'd hugely prefer it was now a bad memory from last year deftly finessed (but it was never going to be finessed)

ed was good not bad, shut up

tbh I'm not sure what to think of a labour leader's stance on Israel till I've heard Maureen Lipman's very thoughtful take!

Catching to more past points, sorry:

xxxp I'm going to have to ask you to have another go at the second sentence there - as it is, it reads as "there aren't a lot of left-wing Jews so *shrug*"

The minority I refer to is the minority carrying out the harrassment.

On a moral level it's a disaster because *we should expect better*. On a political level it could be the difference that loses them another election.

On a moral level I agree but the next election will be fought on roughly the same lines as the last one, with more on Brexit and its potential aftermath.

Anti-semitism could lead to an incident, a question at a debate and it goes wrong but you can never plan for that - this issue has been going on for a long time and when it came to the last gen election there was nothing.

This is really just trolling now, right? Who would read mentions of people defending Corbyn who share most of his views (including on Palestine) and conclude that the problem was tax dodgers?

― gyac, Thursday, 2 August 2018 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Most of the ppl driving this convo in this particular way are from the right-wing media who don't want to see any form of socialism. Is this controversial?

I don’t care about those people. I’ve already pointed out that many people are acting in bad faith. It’s not those people whose opinions concern me. Do you have anything to say to the points I’ve actually raised?

Don't act like I didn't address anything you've raised because you didn't like what I said.

there's actually a serious tension between (A) "this is a moral issue that we should address because it's right" and (B) "therefore we should step up and do something instant and media-facing RIGHT NOW"

A: this is unarguably true, and shd be part of labour's thinking
B: this actually *not* necessarily always true, if the things you need to do are reorganising structures and rebuilding trust -- bcz the seemingly effective things you can do overnight to address this kind of moral issue can go horribly wrong and undermine the new structures and the trust

(B is is the lesson to learned from the adventures in "humanitarian intervention" that began to be undertaken in the 90s: insofaras they were undertaken to address "something must be done" they have on the whole made things much much worse

matt made a good point upthread abt ppl judging fitness for leadership through perceived effectiveness of leadership of yr own party -- and obviously many voters do reach for this shorthand BUT the extent to which the discussion is transmitted thru a media increasingly distrusted renders this much more of an open question than it was even three years ago

I'm quite sceptical of the notion that Corbyn is just drifting through this whole row using his usual cool distance from the media, and not just blinking like a rabbit in the headlights because he can't think what to do.

The alternative is that he just doesn't see anything wrong with what's been happening - either out of a blind spot or wilful stubborness, and that's more worrying than anything else.

BUT the extent to which the discussion is transmitted thru a media increasingly distrusted renders this much more of an open question than it was even three years ago

Yes except now it's also filtered through other channels that are even less trustworthy and even more distorting.

The fact that we’re talking about this at length when the major political story of the day is that Michel Barnier has basically told the uk govt. to F-off in 20 European newspapers because their white paper proposals threaten the stability of the single market is pretty indicative of where we are.

Barnier was always going to kick those proposals into the dust.

Attempts are being through much of the party to make it right with the much criticised code of conduct, but still. And Momentum's decision last night was correct.

That shorthand is good and all however its certainly something that Corbyn has made it this far and Labour gained seats at the last election, given how much the PLP hate him.

A quiet day so I'll just put this out there...John McTernan follows me on twitter now.

does it seem weird to anyone else that Jon Lansman is personally calling for Carolyn Harris to stand down, tweeting about the homophobia allegations etc? does he not have proxies who can do this sort of thing for him?

he follows me too: he's very into books

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

It's a solid piece.

Seems well put.

The JLM leadership has dismissed it as ‘another article bemoaning a situation of the party’s own making’ and called for action, in the form of the full adoption of the IHRA code and Willsman’s expulsion, rather than words - though it does seem to have been well received elsewhere.

The best they can come up with is How Dare He Allow This To Be Published On The Sabbath, which is pretty pathetic.

Hard to find much fault in it and at the very least he's taking on the "it's all a right wing media lie" dorks

"and even one individual who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood"

and at least he has thwarted Ken's attempt at rejoining with a nom de plum sock!

We're all doomed and here's why, according to the Daily Telegraph, 3rd August, 1918 2018...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/03/etonians-shunned-modern-cabinet-will-new-talent-come/

as PWEI once said, Charles Moore knows the score

once again that Torgraph paywall-fadeout replicates the walking away from a pub bore meme!

if we could just find and shoot anybody who doesn't think that piece is hilarious we'd secure a brighter future for the world

Charles Moore's face always looks like someone has dropped their trousers and started doing a shit in front of him and he feels appalled, disgusted, but somehow also suddenly aroused.

There are good reasons why so many prime ministers were from Eton – while none have come from comprehensives

Notwithstanding the fact there were ca. 250 years of Prime Ministers before comprehensive schools existed in any great numbers, this is true.

mcternan follows me also -- we shd invite him onto ilm, in the 70s he co-founded and ran a stranglers fanzine called "hanging around" (early enough and important enough to have been in the british library punk display)

sudden relevatory thought: he's already there

lol

Mcturrnican

*shudder*

OK so McTernan could've seen me replying to some of the ppl he already follows and seen mutuals. It could get weird if I RT some pro-North Korea shit that's for sure ;-)

So re-linking again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

Be good to hear from people who are finding problems with Corbyn's approach.

Its a good piece but note there is no shift in position.

Seven of the IHRA examples were incorporated word-for-word. And I believe the essence of the other four have also been captured.

There are well expressed sentiments, it draws (to me) clear lines on what is or isn't acceptable - but I reckon it won't satisfy. What would you like Corbyn to say that he hasn't?

What would you like Corbyn to say that he hasn't?

I don't think McTernan's going to out himself that easily.

mcternan follows me also -- we shd invite him onto ilm, in the 70s he co-founded and ran a stranglers fanzine called "hanging around" (early enough and important enough to have been in the british library punk display)

― mark s, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:51 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sudden relevatory thought: he's already there

― mark s, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:54 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

― imago, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:56 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Mcturrnican

― calzino, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:56 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Stranglers - The Raven (started by The Jupiter 8 (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 25-Oct-2012)
The Stranglers - Black and White POLL (started by WHERE'S JIM!? (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 23-Mar-2016)
The Stranglers - Singles (The UA Years) (started by You’re being too simplistic and you’re insulting my poor heart (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 27-Feb-2015)

The only real argument I have with that piece is the bit about "overheated rhetoric" - which is true, but one of those things it's maybe better to rise above or address in a way that looks less obviously defensive.

Ultimately what he wrote is only a starting point, albeit a good one - politicians have to be judged by their actions in these situations, otherwise they might as well be Vince Cable.

when the Lib Dems do their The Voice: Tories in Disguise show for the next leader Cable will show the world and Will.i.am just what he's all about

I'm thinking about one of the few positives that might come out of what has otherwise been a complete debacle, and perhaps Labour should commit to allowing *all* minorities to officially define what does and does not constitute bigotry against them.

Obviously this would be a complete clusterfuck with senior public figures failing to meet them (literally) left, right and centre, but it's one that would be worth it, and one that any party aiming to be taken seriously as a political force should be willing to do.