the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

I'm quite sceptical of the notion that Corbyn is just drifting through this whole row using his usual cool distance from the media, and not just blinking like a rabbit in the headlights because he can't think what to do.

The alternative is that he just doesn't see anything wrong with what's been happening - either out of a blind spot or wilful stubborness, and that's more worrying than anything else.

BUT the extent to which the discussion is transmitted thru a media increasingly distrusted renders this much more of an open question than it was even three years ago

Yes except now it's also filtered through other channels that are even less trustworthy and even more distorting.

The fact that we’re talking about this at length when the major political story of the day is that Michel Barnier has basically told the uk govt. to F-off in 20 European newspapers because their white paper proposals threaten the stability of the single market is pretty indicative of where we are.

Barnier was always going to kick those proposals into the dust.

Attempts are being through much of the party to make it right with the much criticised code of conduct, but still. And Momentum's decision last night was correct.

That shorthand is good and all however its certainly something that Corbyn has made it this far and Labour gained seats at the last election, given how much the PLP hate him.

A quiet day so I'll just put this out there...John McTernan follows me on twitter now.

does it seem weird to anyone else that Jon Lansman is personally calling for Carolyn Harris to stand down, tweeting about the homophobia allegations etc? does he not have proxies who can do this sort of thing for him?

he follows me too: he's very into books

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

It's a solid piece.

Seems well put.

The JLM leadership has dismissed it as ‘another article bemoaning a situation of the party’s own making’ and called for action, in the form of the full adoption of the IHRA code and Willsman’s expulsion, rather than words - though it does seem to have been well received elsewhere.

The best they can come up with is How Dare He Allow This To Be Published On The Sabbath, which is pretty pathetic.

Hard to find much fault in it and at the very least he's taking on the "it's all a right wing media lie" dorks

"and even one individual who appeared to believe that Hitler had been misunderstood"

and at least he has thwarted Ken's attempt at rejoining with a nom de plum sock!

We're all doomed and here's why, according to the Daily Telegraph, 3rd August, 1918 2018...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/08/03/etonians-shunned-modern-cabinet-will-new-talent-come/

as PWEI once said, Charles Moore knows the score

once again that Torgraph paywall-fadeout replicates the walking away from a pub bore meme!

if we could just find and shoot anybody who doesn't think that piece is hilarious we'd secure a brighter future for the world

Charles Moore's face always looks like someone has dropped their trousers and started doing a shit in front of him and he feels appalled, disgusted, but somehow also suddenly aroused.

There are good reasons why so many prime ministers were from Eton – while none have come from comprehensives

Notwithstanding the fact there were ca. 250 years of Prime Ministers before comprehensive schools existed in any great numbers, this is true.

mcternan follows me also -- we shd invite him onto ilm, in the 70s he co-founded and ran a stranglers fanzine called "hanging around" (early enough and important enough to have been in the british library punk display)

sudden relevatory thought: he's already there

lol

Mcturrnican

*shudder*

OK so McTernan could've seen me replying to some of the ppl he already follows and seen mutuals. It could get weird if I RT some pro-North Korea shit that's for sure ;-)

So re-linking again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

Be good to hear from people who are finding problems with Corbyn's approach.

Its a good piece but note there is no shift in position.

Seven of the IHRA examples were incorporated word-for-word. And I believe the essence of the other four have also been captured.

There are well expressed sentiments, it draws (to me) clear lines on what is or isn't acceptable - but I reckon it won't satisfy. What would you like Corbyn to say that he hasn't?

What would you like Corbyn to say that he hasn't?

I don't think McTernan's going to out himself that easily.

mcternan follows me also -- we shd invite him onto ilm, in the 70s he co-founded and ran a stranglers fanzine called "hanging around" (early enough and important enough to have been in the british library punk display)

― mark s, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:51 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sudden relevatory thought: he's already there

― mark s, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:54 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

― imago, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:56 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Mcturrnican

― calzino, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:56 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Stranglers - The Raven (started by The Jupiter 8 (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 25-Oct-2012)
The Stranglers - Black and White POLL (started by WHERE'S JIM!? (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 23-Mar-2016)
The Stranglers - Singles (The UA Years) (started by You’re being too simplistic and you’re insulting my poor heart (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 27-Feb-2015)

The only real argument I have with that piece is the bit about "overheated rhetoric" - which is true, but one of those things it's maybe better to rise above or address in a way that looks less obviously defensive.

Ultimately what he wrote is only a starting point, albeit a good one - politicians have to be judged by their actions in these situations, otherwise they might as well be Vince Cable.

when the Lib Dems do their The Voice: Tories in Disguise show for the next leader Cable will show the world and Will.i.am just what he's all about

I'm thinking about one of the few positives that might come out of what has otherwise been a complete debacle, and perhaps Labour should commit to allowing *all* minorities to officially define what does and does not constitute bigotry against them.

Obviously this would be a complete clusterfuck with senior public figures failing to meet them (literally) left, right and centre, but it's one that would be worth it, and one that any party aiming to be taken seriously as a political force should be willing to do.

it's about time we had The Wokening, yes

How would that practically work when you have one group within Labour arguing that making justice for Palestinians a central foreign policy issue is an inherently antisemitic position and another group that thinks deprioritising justice for Palestinians is an inherently anti-Arab one?

I have absolutely no idea, and maybe it isn't possible - and this is at heart an issue that should be determined outside rather than within political parties. The alternative is that you have various types of bigotry effectively sitting in a hierarchy of unacceptability, which is what we've had in practice for some time but the last few weeks have really shone a light on that.

needs some kind of two state solution

perhaps Labour should commit to allowing *all* minorities to officially define what does and does not constitute bigotry against them.

It would be interesting what the response would be on the UK right, politics and media, if a *representative and respected Muslim body tried to do this.

(*this is where it falls down)

I can imagine it would be all about attacks on free speech and PC gone mad.

there is, of course, a very real problem in deciding which self-appointed groups get to speak for every member of their community

Yes, the claims to representation / standing are crucial here.

The reality is that you’re always going to have various types of bigotry sitting alongside each other in a mass movement and the best you can really hope for is that the party approaches rooting it out in a diligent, even-handed way and works to ensure that it’s not reflected in policy imo.

Labour Friends Of Israel and the pro-BDS wing can coexist in the same movement, despite both having their own potential biases and bigotries. The specific challenge with the IHRA definition is that it would allow the former to kick out the latter - or at least make a concerted effort to.

At the very least it would force white self-styled progressives to admit there are some minority groups they favour more than others and interrogate the reasons for that. At worst it would further legitimise some prejudices.

You would hope that some people in Labour have experienced a painful self realisation over the past week or so, while there's evidence that some others are sailing on as usual - including some of the people making the most noise about anti-semitism.

There is some kerfuffle about the Guardian piece reusing text from a previous article by JC, though this does largely seem to be coming from journalists and other people who confuse political acts with essay-writing contests.

Considering this argument is literally over the extent to which the NEC *failed* to cut-and-paste a document without changing it, that is honestly some bullshit.

"my opinion on this matter has not changed in 30 years"
"and yet i see you use exactly the same phrasing to express it! i am very intelligent."

needs some kind of two state solution

― the Joao looked at Jonny (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 4 August 2018 11:41 (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

move to the north now, get bedded in imo

At the very least it would force white self-styled progressives to admit there are some minority groups they favour more than others and interrogate the reasons for that.

this seems optimistic, the people you're referring to have already shown themselves to be inconsistent and hypocritical on this issue (consciously or otherwise), why would Labour committing to allowing all minorities to officially define what constitutes bigotry against them change that?
If you're a member of a minority group but disagree with how the majority of people in that minority group about how define bigotry against the group (or how to define the group in the first place), is making this all official basically telling you to shut up? It feels hard to defend the disciplinary apparatus of the party being used against someone in this position if they're giving their own opinion on bigotry against a group they're a member of

The inevitable demands for whites to be able to officially define what constitutes anti-white bigotry would not help things either.

I'm not sure there's anywhere in the North I fancy? Antrim-ish maybe

whole north coast is beautiful but the placed all seem to be named after massacres taste's strange!

Antrim is hardcore DUP country fwiw.

thats a polite way of spelling UVF

Sammy Wilson and Ian Paisley Jr are two of its MPs and on a clear day you can see Ayrshire - enough said?

ach you never know how brexit will change things