the day after the deadline: can the union survive brexit and other deep questions

lol

Mcturrnican

*shudder*

OK so McTernan could've seen me replying to some of the ppl he already follows and seen mutuals. It could get weird if I RT some pro-North Korea shit that's for sure ;-)

So re-linking again:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/03/jeremy-corbyn-antisemitism-labour-party

Be good to hear from people who are finding problems with Corbyn's approach.

Its a good piece but note there is no shift in position.

Seven of the IHRA examples were incorporated word-for-word. And I believe the essence of the other four have also been captured.

There are well expressed sentiments, it draws (to me) clear lines on what is or isn't acceptable - but I reckon it won't satisfy. What would you like Corbyn to say that he hasn't?

What would you like Corbyn to say that he hasn't?

I don't think McTernan's going to out himself that easily.

mcternan follows me also -- we shd invite him onto ilm, in the 70s he co-founded and ran a stranglers fanzine called "hanging around" (early enough and important enough to have been in the british library punk display)

― mark s, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:51 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sudden relevatory thought: he's already there

― mark s, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:54 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

― imago, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:56 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Mcturrnican

― calzino, Saturday, 4 August 2018 09:56 (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The Stranglers - The Raven (started by The Jupiter 8 (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 25-Oct-2012)
The Stranglers - Black and White POLL (started by WHERE'S JIM!? (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 23-Mar-2016)
The Stranglers - Singles (The UA Years) (started by You’re being too simplistic and you’re insulting my poor heart (Turrican) on board I Love Music on 27-Feb-2015)

The only real argument I have with that piece is the bit about "overheated rhetoric" - which is true, but one of those things it's maybe better to rise above or address in a way that looks less obviously defensive.

Ultimately what he wrote is only a starting point, albeit a good one - politicians have to be judged by their actions in these situations, otherwise they might as well be Vince Cable.

when the Lib Dems do their The Voice: Tories in Disguise show for the next leader Cable will show the world and Will.i.am just what he's all about

I'm thinking about one of the few positives that might come out of what has otherwise been a complete debacle, and perhaps Labour should commit to allowing *all* minorities to officially define what does and does not constitute bigotry against them.

Obviously this would be a complete clusterfuck with senior public figures failing to meet them (literally) left, right and centre, but it's one that would be worth it, and one that any party aiming to be taken seriously as a political force should be willing to do.

it's about time we had The Wokening, yes

How would that practically work when you have one group within Labour arguing that making justice for Palestinians a central foreign policy issue is an inherently antisemitic position and another group that thinks deprioritising justice for Palestinians is an inherently anti-Arab one?

I have absolutely no idea, and maybe it isn't possible - and this is at heart an issue that should be determined outside rather than within political parties. The alternative is that you have various types of bigotry effectively sitting in a hierarchy of unacceptability, which is what we've had in practice for some time but the last few weeks have really shone a light on that.

needs some kind of two state solution

perhaps Labour should commit to allowing *all* minorities to officially define what does and does not constitute bigotry against them.

It would be interesting what the response would be on the UK right, politics and media, if a *representative and respected Muslim body tried to do this.

(*this is where it falls down)

I can imagine it would be all about attacks on free speech and PC gone mad.

there is, of course, a very real problem in deciding which self-appointed groups get to speak for every member of their community

Yes, the claims to representation / standing are crucial here.

The reality is that you’re always going to have various types of bigotry sitting alongside each other in a mass movement and the best you can really hope for is that the party approaches rooting it out in a diligent, even-handed way and works to ensure that it’s not reflected in policy imo.

Labour Friends Of Israel and the pro-BDS wing can coexist in the same movement, despite both having their own potential biases and bigotries. The specific challenge with the IHRA definition is that it would allow the former to kick out the latter - or at least make a concerted effort to.

At the very least it would force white self-styled progressives to admit there are some minority groups they favour more than others and interrogate the reasons for that. At worst it would further legitimise some prejudices.

You would hope that some people in Labour have experienced a painful self realisation over the past week or so, while there's evidence that some others are sailing on as usual - including some of the people making the most noise about anti-semitism.

There is some kerfuffle about the Guardian piece reusing text from a previous article by JC, though this does largely seem to be coming from journalists and other people who confuse political acts with essay-writing contests.

Considering this argument is literally over the extent to which the NEC *failed* to cut-and-paste a document without changing it, that is honestly some bullshit.

"my opinion on this matter has not changed in 30 years"
"and yet i see you use exactly the same phrasing to express it! i am very intelligent."

needs some kind of two state solution

― the Joao looked at Jonny (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 4 August 2018 11:41 (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

move to the north now, get bedded in imo

At the very least it would force white self-styled progressives to admit there are some minority groups they favour more than others and interrogate the reasons for that.

this seems optimistic, the people you're referring to have already shown themselves to be inconsistent and hypocritical on this issue (consciously or otherwise), why would Labour committing to allowing all minorities to officially define what constitutes bigotry against them change that?
If you're a member of a minority group but disagree with how the majority of people in that minority group about how define bigotry against the group (or how to define the group in the first place), is making this all official basically telling you to shut up? It feels hard to defend the disciplinary apparatus of the party being used against someone in this position if they're giving their own opinion on bigotry against a group they're a member of

The inevitable demands for whites to be able to officially define what constitutes anti-white bigotry would not help things either.

I'm not sure there's anywhere in the North I fancy? Antrim-ish maybe

whole north coast is beautiful but the placed all seem to be named after massacres taste's strange!

Antrim is hardcore DUP country fwiw.

thats a polite way of spelling UVF

Sammy Wilson and Ian Paisley Jr are two of its MPs and on a clear day you can see Ayrshire - enough said?

ach you never know how brexit will change things

language handy to pick up an all

From Hannlin Rede [yearly report] 2012–2013 (the Männystèr o Fairms an Kintra Fordèrin, 2012)[74]

We hae cum guid speed wi fettlin tae brucellosis, an A'm mintin at bein haleheidit tae wun tae tha stannin o bein redd o brucellosis aathegither. Forbye, A'm leukkin tae see an ettlin in core at fettlin tae tha TB o Kye, takkin in complutherin anent a screengin ontak, tha wye we'll can pit owre an inlaik in ootlay sillert wi resydentèrs. Mair betoken, but, we'll be leukkin forbye tae uphaud an ingang airtit wi tha hannlins furtae redd ootcum disayses. An we'r fur stairtin in tae leukk bodes agane fur oor baste kenmairk gate, 'at owre tha nixt wheen o yeirs wull be tha ootcum o sillerin tae aboot £60m frae resydentèrs furtae uphaud tha hale hannlin adae wi beef an tha mïlk-hoose.

That'll be the Ulster Scots then? Even Boaby Gillespie would turn up his nose at that.

the entire thing is a troll of irish obv

masterful stuff rly

There used to be some clown in Scotland who would turn up on the telly every now again talking like that - or takkin' lik' yon - and trying to get the Scottish authorities to change the road signs or whatever. For instance, I'm pretty sure nobody - sorry naebody - in NI says "stairtin'", they might say it in some parts of Scotland. They are the world's greatest wind up merchants up there.

On what could Labour do this is a concrete set of proposals:

Corbyn’s article was good but it could’ve gone further so here’s what I would like to see:

1) a substantive speech at conference on the issue, not relegated to the fringe or outsourced to momentum.

2) an expanded Compliance department including a specific internet monitoring.

— Congolesa “Fire @Jack” Rice (@judeinlondon2) August 4, 2018

Tom D might want to acquaint himself with Rab Wilson's columns for The National. The linguistic contortions are hilarious, maybe the best set is when he went to America travelling up and down the 'heichways'.

I believe it's part of the school curriculum these days and there's a taxpayer funder keeper of the language (can't find the reference because I can't remember the specific name they have).

And of course there's Scots Wikipedia

https://sco.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_leid

Couple of resignations of a couple of useless cunts long standing Lab members - using this row to do what they've been meaning to.

Obviously we can say action but Willsman getting elected to the NEC (and the fact that no one can get rid of him, unless he himself resigns) will be one way of prolonging this.

I feel like we need to be talking more about what Steve Bannon is up to with Johnson and Rees-Mogg.

soggy biscuit, one assumes

The last thing I read on Bannon was how he was struggling to build an alliance of right-wing parties across Europe...what else is he up to?

More racism from Boris today but at least he is a backbencher now.

He's definitely teeing himself up for a leadership challenge and the racism felt extremely calculated to elicit exactly the condemnation and subseqeuent defensiveness it's already recieved. I'm guessing that's what the Bannon thing is about but surely he's toxic even over here?

Can't see Johnson making it down to the final two in any case, if only because a load more Brexit MPs will bundle into the contest and split the vote.

I always thought there would always be enough people in the Con party who would be horrified at the idea of leader BJ to thwart him. But you never know these days.

I agree with DC: what is going on now -- the merging of Con Party with Far Right, I suppose - feels more dangerous than ever. The attack on a leftist bookshop another part of the pattern. The media is not able to take this on and discuss it properly, for whatever reasons.

for better or worse I'm not sure the book shop thing is any worse or scarier than when trustafarians used to throw stuff at McDonald's

meanwhile, some scofflaw ruffians have pole-vaulted across castle rees-mogg's moat:

Hoodlums have left a series of offensive messages at the home of MP Jacob Rees-Mogg and placed a pink dildo on his wife’s car.

The vandals sprayed “scum” on the side of Helena Rees-Mogg’s green Land Rover and stuck a condom-covered sex toy to the front of the vehicle’s bonnet.

The slogans “****head” and “shut up and die” were splashed over the garage walls at his estate in West Harptree in Somerset.

The slogans “politics = death” and “posh scum” were written across the patio window of the leading Brexiteer.

And someone sprayed “t**t” on an umbrella stand in the garden.

The mischief-makers hit the home of the Tory MP on Wednesday night while he and his family were on holiday in New York. It was the family maid who discovered the mess on Thursday morning.

spare a thought for the poor maid, who was presumably overcome by an attack of the vapours at the sight

Are umbrella stands no longer safe from these far left hooligans?

cook pass Babtridge

those slogans are shit

absolutely pathetic tbh!

"shut up and die" is teaching that bally rotter a lesson!

kind of makes me wonder if it wasn't a) aggrieved neighbours or b) neighbourhood posh kids after a day on the lash