Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs

the Roseanne thing seems particularly odd, since she was seemingly doing nothing a year or so ago, and now she's back at it

I would be more scornful of Amazon attempting to bury the completed Woody Allen film if it wasn't for the fact that he hasn't made anything really good in 20 years

antz came out in 1998 so this checks out

I also think that "cancellation culture" is detrimental to progressivism and runs counter to the goals of a restorative justice movement.

Cancellation culture has existed forever. What else can you call it when a woman accuses a powerful man of sexual assault and loses her career over it, even though she's telling the truth? It's only now that the abusers are being "cancelled" that it has become a vexing topic for white dudes. I'd be more convinced if Norm MacDonald spent some time doing the work of expanding the borders of his empathy instead of bemoaning the fate of his friends who have always lived inside them.

If, say, we were aiming toward actual accountability processes-- remember them?-- instead of ostracization, there would absolutely be a more productive outlook for non-legal-system-related systems of recourse.

But... that is what women have been aiming for, for decades. Why is accountability being talked about as a new approach that is suddenly worth trying out? Why wasn't it worth trying when women suggested it thirty or forty years ago? We ended up at ostracism because people refused to engage with accountability.

I don't know what's so hard to understand tbh: these guys had a platform. They used that platform to abuse women and destroy lives and careers. They don't get to have that platform anymore.

No one's stopping them from making amends, find some ways to contribute positively to society in whatever way they see fit. But having that platform again? No. They already had that chance.

but

what if they do?

like, i don't agree that they should, varying from case to case, but it seems clear that many of em will work in the field again, possibly at a decent level.

Worth yer time

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/designing-women-creator-les-moonves-not-all-harassment-is-sexual-1142448

Epic. Lesson: Never piss off a writer.

yeah I'm not entirely sure if this new era of wokeness is gonna have any permanent effect on their careers. there's a pretty extensive list of celebrities who have done horrible shit but continued to get lots of work...think of Woody Allen (Louie CK's idol!) or Mark Wahlberg, to name a couple. for every one of us saying "Louie should lose his platform for what he did" there's ten who will say "What he did wasn't so bad, those women could've walked away, he's not trying to be a role model, etc. etc." as much as it feels like we're in a different era you do have to wonder what 5 years time is gonna do to people's memories.

but even if it does "cancel" them that presents a new set of problems. When domestic violence became a hot topic in the NFL there was a lot of talk about how people like Ray Rice losing their careers essentially encouraged women to stay silent on abuse. Chloe Dykstra already took a ton of abuse by revealing what a massive garbage person Chris Hardwick was, imagine if Hardwick actually lost his hosting job. not hard to imagine a bunch of women with similar stories looking at that and thinking "nope, not worth it"

when you're committed to the joke troll game

Norm Macdonald Tells Howard Stern: “You’d Have To Have Down Syndrome” To Not “Feel Sorry” For Harassment Victims https://t.co/t8phX5TxbM pic.twitter.com/208v7g2nzL

— Deadline Hollywood (@DEADLINE) September 12, 2018

Ah, yes, the well-known lack of empathy among those with Down Syndrome.

xposts yeah I'm not particularly surprised when these guys come back, because sadly that's just the world we live in. I just feel that whenever possible, there needs to be a pushback against any kind of bullshit redemption narrative - whatever social value was gained through exposure to these celebrities' work/art is tainted by the harm that was done during its creation.

My generation is still irrecoverably inured to this behavior, effectively just as bad as the boomers, but hopefully all this makes it easier for the young folks to be less terrible, by making it harder to get away with being a fucking pig.

“Cancellation culture” is also known as accountability and f. hazel thoroughly OTM.

Mike Isabella is going bankrupt in part because he’s a filthy jerk boss and now everyone knows about it. Will I miss a couple of his dining establishments? Sure. Can I live without his contributions to the DC culinary scene? You fucking betcha.

The only “redemption narrative” worth a damn is: apologize profusely in a way that shows you understand what you did, do work on behalf of victims, and go find another career that keeps you out of my sight.

Does that mean I won’t be able to get an Oreo shake from his stand in DCA

The other guy named in the newer Farrow report on Moonves is also out:

BULLETIN: "Jeff Fager is leaving the company effective immediately," CBS News president David Rhodes says. "Bill Owens will manage the 60 Minutes team as Ingrid Ciprian-Matthews and I begin the search for a new executive producer of the program."

— Brian Stelter (@brianstelter) September 12, 2018

Follow-up tweets consisting of asscovering/'it wasn't that report' but yeah right.

Norm as an exemplar of empathy for celebrities is good stuff. He should use that in his act.

I agree with everything f. hazel posted. Roz, I agree with you insofar as "they" refers to Cosby, Weinstein, and Louie CK. I think my take was partially informed by sympathy for Roseanne, whose cancellation I really "felt", and frustration at the way she, with her brainworms, has now been lumped in now with a bunch of male abusers. But mostly, I'm reeling from the effects that this movement has had on a local level, where I've had somewhere between 15-20 friends called out. Some of the call-outs have been righteous and necessary. Others have been overstated. Others have been frivolous. And still more are nothing more than bullying, seeing the language co-opted by abusive people-- nothing I want to draw attention to, but stories that would turn your stomach.

As for the people who were called-out, one of my friends is now dead. Two others are disappeared without a trace-- one of them, the community is far safer without them in it, but I wonder if that same individual is engaging in similar behaviour in another environment. Another has gone insane and has become an addict and requires constant support. Several others have been cancelled and require constant support. I've provided emotional support for survivors, held abusive friends accountable, facilitated two call-ins-- but more than anything, I just am reeling from the level of vitriol and violence.

Pointing out that “cancellation culture” (🤮) existed for victims of abusers before #MeToo is an awful defense of it. It’s still horrible & violent & the bloodlust is not justified. Fgti otm

No flappy bird, I disagree

"Cancellation" is a necessary thing in many cases, but typically, it-- and call-outs in general-- were seen as final recourse for people who refused any sort of private methods of accountability. But it's become a first port-of-call instead of a last resort. A rhetoric, and "culture", I guess, has risen around the act of cancellation. (Even an industry, really, on a journalistic level.)

What f. hazel referred to-- the cancellation of survivors in the wake of their disclosure-- is still ongoing, too

Louis seems to be doing okay for a recipient of "horrible & violent" "bloodlust."

I guess he got the good Band-Aids

But it's become a first port-of-call instead of a last resort. A rhetoric, and "culture", I guess, has risen around the act of cancellation. (Even an industry, really, on a journalistic level.)

This is what I am referring to. Guilty until proven innocent & thirsty for blood. I have seen it on a local level (a year and a half before Harvey) and it was mostly a disaster.

What f. hazel referred to-- the cancellation of survivors in the wake of their disclosure-- is still ongoing, too

I know, and it is awful & needs to stop.

Louis seems to be doing okay for a recipient of "horrible & violent" "bloodlust."

I guess he got the good Band-Aids

As for the people who were called-out, one of my friends is now dead. Two others are disappeared without a trace-- one of them, the community is far safer without them in it, but I wonder if that same individual is engaging in similar behaviour in another environment. Another has gone insane and has become an addict and requires constant support.

Did this all happen since lasr november when #metoo started going?

I’ll bow out here because I frankly have no idea what the fuck fgti and flappy bird are talking about. Clearly there are some totally not famous people who have been victimized by other people pretending to be victims, with little basis. This is definitely a thing that has happened, people on the Internet etc.

Maybe this is why laws and courts were established. Nah, the system is corrupt; let’s all just mete out “accountability” ourselves by ostracizing folks.

what

unjustified bloodlust!!!

let’s all just mete out “accountability” ourselves

yeah this has definitely worked in the past

it's obvious the legal system and the police are weighted against victims. this needs to change. I am for reform, not revolution. Sorry

Maybe this is why laws and courts were established. Nah, the system is corrupt; let’s all just mete out “accountability” ourselves by ostracizing folks.

― Paleo Weltschmerz (El Tomboto), Wednesday, September 12, 2018 6:10 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Weren't you the one who banned Dom?

oh, whineypaws

It’s still horrible & violent & the bloodlust is not justified

Fuck off with this shit. How dare you say that women demanding justice, justice they've tried for decades to get the "proper" way and failed, and lost everything doing, after actual violence, is "bloodlust" ?

This is what happens because men have spent a very long time railroading, gaslighting, stonewalling, abusing, and shutting us up.

This is what you get.

I hate this 'cancelled' terminology. where the fuck did that come from? is that some twitter thing? god I hate the internet.

"Clearly there are some totally not famous people who have been victimized by other people pretending to be victims, with little basis. This is definitely a thing that has happened, people on the Internet etc. "

it happened to someone who posts to ILX for an "infraction" that was negligible and it still inspired bloodlust and outrageous claims in parts of the internet, yes.

I would like to hear more about the circumstances of people abusing this moment that fgti described. So far in terms of the high profile cases, the targeted men seem to have deserved it, but I think the power of this movement was that men no longer felt assured they would get the benefit of the doubt. It was scary, even for people who aren’t harassers, because they were no longer the “trusted” class and I think this is why it was effective. There is no doubt in my mind that these call outs have made would-be harassers and assailanta think twice.

I can't post any of that shit in good conscience, Treeship.

Furthermore, it's complicated... the individuals who frame their pain within the rubric of "abuse"-- when it is not abuse-- and use methods like call-outs to mitigate that pain, they're still in pain. How do you point out that their response is perhaps misguided, or malicious, without negating, and increasing, that pain? (I realize that an angry outburst I made last week is antithetical to what I'm typing now, and I apologize for that angry outburst.)

This is what you get.

I’m not referring to any direct parties involved, I’m referring to the spectacle & the spectators. This was a tangent off of celebrity worship.

going back to norm, the thing that puts a blood mist across my vision is the notion that, in achieving fame over a long period of work as a standup means that losing evrything by being called out is somehow a worse experience than what the victims have gone through

like somehow the implication being that, well, these victims, they’re just people, they have nowhere to fall down ~from~, these whiny serfs don’t lose anything but sleep while these giants of comedy lose Income, Work, Credibility, their Reputation

fuck

off

norm

I don’t normally go in for reductive binaries but jesus god that fucks me off so much

you're right about that

I cannot help but wonder in reading the showbiz apologists for celebrity sexual harassers, what they would say when asked their opinions of Subway cancelling their contract with Jared Fogle.

My god. Check out the responses of these men on the CBS board to the Les Moonves accusations https://t.co/d6BywpZKtF pic.twitter.com/gizzCjGqh3

— Amanda Terkel (@aterkel) September 13, 2018

that's really disappointing. I remember quite liking William Cohen.

The les moonves accusations are horrifying. I don’t know why he isn’t being described as an “alleged rapist” rather than harasser.

No one is crying for these people besides people who were benefitting from their fame. Norm MacDonald can also fuck off forever. (this one isn't hard since the only thing he ever did kind of funny was the Burt Reynolds impersonation and I feel like he had a weird weiner dog joke).

the problem is working out what fuck off forever means. everyone's somewhere.

that (fantastic) linda bloodworth thomason piece is a great illustration of how sexism marginalizes all women, not just the ones toxic men want to fuck (the ones in the reject pile more often than not get fucked with and stymied at every turn, NOT THAT I HAVE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE cough)

otm
sometimes we have the pleasure of being stymied AND getting more personal sexist treatment

i relish the day when men's stories no longer have the popular benefit of the doubt. i don't think we are there yet but maybe someday.

we can hope. gonna be a lot of canon cleaning first

It was a brief but memorable run at the top for Vertigo.

@ Treeship, I do have an example for you about what I'm talking about-- because it's my own story, and betrays nobody's privacy but my own-- but I'm going to post it in another thread