should the West invade and/or bomb the fuck out of Iran?

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According to Ulfkotte's report, "western security sources" claim that during CIA Director Porter Goss' Dec. 12 visit to Ankara, he asked Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan to provide support for a possibile 2006 air strike against Iranian nuclear and military facilities. More specifically, Goss is said to have asked Turkey to provide unfettered exchange of intelligence that could help with a mission.

DDP also reported that the governments of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Oman and Pakistan have been informed in recent weeks of Washington's military plans. The countries, apparently, were told that air strikes were a "possible option," but they were given no specific timeframe for the operations.

http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,392783,00.html

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 02:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Stratfor just sent this around so I'll copy/paste the whole thing:

* * *

Iran's Redefined Strategy

By George Friedman

The Iranians have broken the International Atomic Energy Agency seals on some of their nuclear facilities. They did this very deliberately and publicly to make certain that everyone knew that Tehran was proceeding with its nuclear program. Prior to this, and in parallel, the Iranians began to -- among other things -- systematically bait the Israelis, threatening to wipe them from the face of the earth.

The question, of course, is what exactly the Iranians are up to. They do not yet have nuclear weapons. The Israelis do. The Iranians have now hinted that (a) they plan to build nuclear weapons and have implied, as clearly as possible without saying it, that (b) they plan to use them against Israel. On the surface, these statements appear to be begging for a pre-emptive strike by Israel. There are many things one might hope for, but a surprise visit from the Israeli air force is not usually one of them. Nevertheless, that is exactly what the Iranians seem to be doing, so we need to sort this out.

There are four possibilities:

1. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, is insane and wants to be attacked because of a bad childhood.
2. The Iranians are engaged in a complex diplomatic maneuver, and this is part of it.
3. The Iranians think they can get nuclear weapons -- and a deterrent to Israel -- before the Israelis attack.
4. The Iranians, actually and rationally, would welcome an Israeli -- or for that matter, American -- air strike.

Let's begin with the insanity issue, just to get it out of the way. One of the ways to avoid thinking seriously about foreign policy is to dismiss as a nutcase anyone who does not behave as you yourself would. As such, he is unpredictable and, while scary, cannot be controlled. You are therefore relieved of the burden of doing anything about him. In foreign policy, it is sometimes useful to appear to be insane, as it is in poker: The less predictable you are, the more power you have -- and insanity is a great tool of unpredictability. Some leaders cultivate an aura of insanity.

However, people who climb to the leadership of nations containing many millions of people must be highly disciplined, with insight into others and the ability to plan carefully. Lunatics rarely have those characteristics. Certainly, there have been sociopaths -- like Hitler -- but at the same time, he was a very able, insightful, meticulous man. He might have been crazy, but dismissing him because he was crazy -- as many did -- was a massive mistake. Moreover, leaders do not rise alone. They are surrounded by other ambitious people. In the case of Ahmadinejad, he is answerable to others above him (in this case, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei), alongside him and below him. He did not get to where he is by being nuts -- and even if we think what he says is insane, it clearly doesn't strike the rest of his audience as insane. Thinking of him as insane is neither helpful nor clarifying.

The Three-Player Game

So what is happening?

First, the Iranians obviously are responding to the Americans. Tehran's position in Iraq is not what the Iranians had hoped it would be. U.S. maneuvers with the Sunnis in Iraq and the behavior of Iraqi Shiite leaders clearly have created a situation in which the outcome will not be the creation of an Iranian satellite state. At best, Iraq will be influenced by Iran or neutral. At worst, it will drift back into opposition to Iran -- which has been Iraq's traditional geopolitical position. This is not satisfactory. Iran's Iraq policy has not failed, but it is not the outcome Tehran dreamt of in 2003.

There is a much larger issue. The United States has managed its position in Iraq -- to the extent that it has been managed -- by manipulating the Sunni-Shiite fault line in the Muslim world. In the same way that Richard Nixon manipulated the Sino-Soviet split, the fundamental fault line in the Communist world, to keep the Soviets contained and off-balance late in the Vietnam War, so the Bush administration has used the primordial fault line in the Islamic world, the Sunni-Shiite split, to manipulate the situation in Iraq.

Washington did this on a broader scale as well. Having enticed Iran with new opportunities -- both for Iran as a nation and as the leading Shiite power in a post-Saddam world -- the administration turned to Sunni countries like Saudi Arabia and enticed them into accommodation with the United States by allowing them to consider the consequences of an ascended Iran under canopy of a relationship with the United States. Washington used that vision of Iran to gain leverage in Saudi Arabia. The United States has been moving back and forth between Sunnis and Shia since the invasion of Afghanistan, when it obtained Iranian support for operations in Afghanistan's Shiite regions. Each side was using the other. The United States, however, attained the strategic goal of any three-player game: It became the swing player between Sunnis and Shia.

This was not what the Iranians had hoped for.

Reclaiming the Banner

There is yet another dimension to this. In 1979, when the Ayatollah Ruholla Khomeini deposed the Shah of Iran, Iran was the center of revolutionary Islamism. It both stood against the United States and positioned itself as the standard-bearer for radical Islamist youth. It was Iran, through its creation, Hezbollah, that pioneered suicide bombings. It championed the principle of revolutionary Islamism against both collaborationist states like Saudi Arabia and secular revolutionaries like Yasser Arafat. It positioned Shi'ism as the protector of the faith and the hope of the future.

In having to defend against Saddam Hussein's Iraq in the 1980s, and the resulting containment battle, Iran became ensnared in a range of necessary but compromising relationships. Recall, if you will, that the Iran-Contra affair revealed not only that the United States used Israel to send weapons to Iran, but also that Iran accepted weapons from Israel. Iran did what it had to in order to survive, but the complexity of its operations led to serious compromises. By the late 1990s, Iran had lost any pretense of revolutionary primacy in the Islamic world. It had been flanked by the Sunni Wahhabi movement, al Qaeda.

The Iranians always saw al Qaeda as an outgrowth of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and therefore, through Shiite and Iranian eyes, never trusted it. Iran certainly didn't want al Qaeda to usurp the position of primary challenger to the West. Under any circumstances, it did not want al Qaeda to flourish. It was caught in a challenge. First, it had to reduce al Qaeda's influence, or concede that the Sunnis had taken the banner from Khomeini's revolution. Second, Iran had to reclaim its place. Third, it had to do this without undermining its geopolitical interests.

Tehran spent the time from 2003 through 2005 maximizing what it could from the Iraq situation. It also quietly participated in the reduction of al Qaeda's network and global reach. In doing so, it appeared to much of the Islamic world as clever and capable, but not particularly principled. Tehran's clear willingness to collaborate on some level with the United States in Afghanistan, in Iraq and in the war on al Qaeda made it appear as collaborationist as it had accused the Kuwaitis or Saudis of being in the past. By the end of 2005, Iran had secured its western frontier as well as it could, had achieved what influence it could in Baghdad, had seen al Qaeda weakened. It was time for the next phase. It had to reclaim its position as the leader of the Islamic revolutionary movement for itself and for Shi'ism.

Thus, the selection of the new president was, in retrospect, carefully engineered. After President Mohammed Khatami's term, all moderates were excluded from the electoral process by decree, and the election came down to a struggle between former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani -- an heir to Khomeini's tradition, but also an heir to the tactical pragmatism of the 1980s and 1990s -- and Ahmadinejad, the clearest descendent of the Khomeini revolution that there was in Iran, and someone who in many ways had avoided the worst taints of compromise.

Ahmadinejad was set loose to reclaim Iran's position in the Muslim world. Since Iran had collaborated with Israel during the 1980s, and since Iranian money in Lebanon had mingled with Israeli money, the first thing he had to do was to reassert Iran's anti-Zionist credentials. He did that by threatening Israel's existence and denying the Holocaust. Whether he believed what he was saying is immaterial. Ahmadinejad used the Holocaust issue to do two things: First, he established himself as intellectually both anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish, taking the far flank among Islamic leaders; and second, he signaled a massive breach with Khatami's approach.

Khatami was focused on splitting the Western world by dividing the Americans from the Europeans. In carrying out this policy, he had to manipulate the Europeans. The Europeans were always open to the claim that the Americans were being rigid and were delighted to serve the role of sophisticated mediator. Khatami used the Europeans' vanity brilliantly, sucking them into endless discussions and turning the Iran situation into a problem the Europeans were having with the United States.

But Tehran paid a price for this in the Muslim world. In drawing close to the Europeans, the Iranians simply appeared to be up to their old game of unprincipled realpolitik with people -- Europeans -- who were no better than the Americans. The Europeans were simply Americans who were weaker. Ahmadinejad could not carry out his strategy of flanking the Wahhabis and still continue the minuet with Europe. So he ended Khatami's game with a bang, with a massive diatribe on the Holocaust and by arguing that if there had been one, the Europeans bore the blame. That froze Germany out of any further dealings with Tehran, and even the French had to back off. Iran's stock in the Islamic world started to rise.

The Nuclear Gambit

The second phase was for Iran to very publicly resume -- or very publicly claim to be resuming -- development of a nuclear weapon. This signaled three things:

1. Iran's policy of accommodation with the West was over.
2. Iran intended to get a nuclear weapon in order to become the only real challenge to Israel and, not incidentally, a regional power that Sunni states would have to deal with.
3. Iran was prepared to take risks that no other Muslim actor was prepared to take. Al Qaeda was a piker.

The fundamental fact is that Ahmadinejad knows that, except in the case of extreme luck, Iran will not be able to get nuclear weapons. First, building a nuclear device is not the same thing as building a nuclear weapon. A nuclear weapon must be sufficiently small, robust and reliable to deliver to a target. A nuclear device has to sit there and go boom. The key technologies here are not the ones that build a device but the ones that turn a device into a weapon -- and then there is the delivery system to worry about: range, reliability, payload, accuracy. Iran has a way to go.

A lot of countries don't want an Iranian bomb. Israel is one. The United States is another. Throw Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and most of the 'Stans into this, and there are not a lot of supporters for an Iranian bomb. However, there are only two countries that can do something about it. The Israelis don't want to get the grief, but they are the ones who cannot avoid action because they are the most vulnerable if Iran should develop a weapon. The United States doesn't want Israel to strike at Iran, as that would massively complicate the U.S. situation in the region, but it doesn't want to carry out the strike itself either.

This, by the way, is a good place to pause and explain to readers who will write in wondering why the United States will tolerate an Israeli nuclear force but not an Iranian one. The answer is simple. Israel will probably not blow up New York. That's why the United States doesn't mind Israel having nukes and does mind Iran having them. Is that fair? This is power politics, not sharing time in preschool. End of digression.

Intra-Islamic Diplomacy

If the Iranians are seen as getting too close to a weapon, either the United States or Israel will take them out, and there is an outside chance that the facilities could not be taken out with a high degree of assurance unless nukes are used. In the past, our view was that the Iranians would move carefully in using the nukes to gain leverage against the United States. That is no longer clear. Their focus now seems to be not on their traditional diplomacy, but on a more radical, intra-Islamic diplomacy. That means that they might welcome a (survivable) attack by Israel or the United States. It would burnish Iran's credentials as the true martyr and fighter of Islam.

Meanwhile, the Iranians appear to be reaching out to the Sunnis on a number of levels. Muqtada al-Sadr, the leader of a radical Shiite group in Iraq with ties to Iran, visited Saudi Arabia recently. There are contacts between radical Shia and Sunnis in Lebanon as well. The Iranians appear to be engaged in an attempt to create the kind of coalition in the Muslim world that al Qaeda failed to create. From Tehran's point of view, if they get a deliverable nuclear device, that's great -- but if they are attacked by Israel or the United States, that's not a bad outcome either.

In short, the diplomacy that Iran practiced from the beginning of the Iraq-Iran war until after the U.S. invasion of Iraq appears to be ended. Iran is making a play for ownership of revolutionary Islamism on behalf of itself and the Shia. Thus, Tehran will continue to make provocative moves, while hoping to avoid counterstrikes. On the other hand, if there are counterstrikes, the Iranians will probably be able to live with that as well.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 02:08 (eighteen years ago) link

The hard kill vs. the soft kill.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:17 (eighteen years ago) link

my cc in boot camp fought in that blink war against iran! more intense than the gulf war he said

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:28 (eighteen years ago) link

what blink war?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:36 (eighteen years ago) link

also the answer to the thread question: no, and no.

though i am not averse to the idea of bombing the fuck out of ahmadnejad, the security services offices in tehran, and parts of the city of qom.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:37 (eighteen years ago) link

the us and iran had a really brief hot war in the late 80s (87? 88?) - PRAYING MANTIS!!! you can tell the operations they don't really feel like selling the public cuz they have great names. anyone mention operation merlin yet?

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:42 (eighteen years ago) link

military operations names are classic.

oh, and hi blount.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:43 (eighteen years ago) link

i am still very surprised people take the threat of iranian nuclear weapons very seriously. supposing they actually manage to build a warhead, how will they deliver it?

by cruise missile? where will they get one from? north korea? how will the north koreans actually get it to iran? by train through china?

by tactical bomber? oh wait, the iranians don't have one, just a fleet of outmoded fighters from the late 70s.

i suppose they could load it into their WWII-era diesel submarine (aka the iranian submarine fleet) and putt-putt their way around cape horn into the mediterranean, then blow up off the coast of haifa or something ... just kidding.

dirty bomb? i suppose, but wouldn't it be cheaper and easier for terrorists to buy warhead material from disaffected chechens or something?

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:44 (eighteen years ago) link

the stratfor article is very on-point except for whatever reason it sort of glosses over its own dismissal of the idea of an iranian nuclear arsenal.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:46 (eighteen years ago) link

It depends where the Iranians would be delivering the nuke. I believe Scud missiles can carry nuclear warheads (correct me if I'm wrong). I imagine the Iranians have those lying around. Israel is in Scud range and so are U.S. bases in the Middle East.

North Korea has longer range missile technology, including ICBMs in development. I don't think North Korea would sell a whole missile, but rather the know-how and complex parts. That could be smuggled by ship.

But the real issue is the destabilizing effect a nuclear Iran would have on the region. Israel would be desperate. Saudi Arabia would feel highly uneasy. Iraq would be further divided. Etc. etc.

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 03:59 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah one thing i've always wondered is when the drawdown was happening and AWESOME FIREPOWER was the word of the day (bask when us military doctrine was 'bomb the fuck out of them bomb the fuck out of them bomb the fuck out of them' instead of 'set some fireworks off and then send some troops in to, um, direct traffic or something and then, um, (the next step supposedly) maybe pull the troops out and have the shiites tell us who to bomb the fuck out of and don't ask no questions. play it by ear.) there was alot of talk about these missile barges that could have AWESOME FIREPOWER and not need nearly the support of a carrier group (some spec was it'd be manned by robots and army generals would control it from the field but c'mon, let's get real, no way the navy was gonna let the army play with something they paid for), and the main thing was (in them quaint days of balancing the budget and trying to control defense spending) it was CHEAP AS HELL. i think the idea may have died with mike boorda, no way the airedales or bubbleheads were getting behind it (gee i wonder why?) and they tend to get cno, but i've never gotten why other countries haven't developed it. anyhow that'd be a pretty awesome way to deliver that shit, esp if you could get the robots to work. get 200 warheads and a tugboat crew, throw some tarp on it, and pow - byebye bloombergville.

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:02 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost israel is not in scud missile range of iran.

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:05 (eighteen years ago) link

so is there any reason israel hasn't gone 'well fuck that' and just bombed whatever sites already? isn't the advantage of being a state that everyone has made their mind up about already and nothing's gonna change that ever that you when deciding what actions to take you only need to consider logistics and not political or diplomatic fallout?

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:06 (eighteen years ago) link

vahid might've just answered my question

j blount (papa la bas), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:07 (eighteen years ago) link

"Iran has been an active participant in the DPRK's Nodong program from its inception in the late 1980s. This would lead to the establishment of the Shehab-3 ("meteor" or "shooting star") program and has allowed both technology and components from the DPRK's programs to continue to flow into Iran's missile programs. Exactly when the Iranians established the Shehab-3 program is presently unclear. Preliminary evidence suggests that both the Nodong and Shehab-3 programs were established concurrently in 1988, although the Shehab-3 program may have had a different name at the time. It appears that a key element of the program was not to purchase and deploy a fleet of Nodong missiles—which it could have done; instead it was to develop the technology and industrial infrastructure to the point where it could produce the system indigenously. The Shehab-3 is of strategic importance for two primary reasons. First, its 1,300km+ range allows it to strike every important US ally in the region (i.e., Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey), southern Russia, and most of Afghanistan. Second, it was designed as a delivery system for WMD warheads."

http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iran/Missile/3367_3395.html


It's pretty clear that Iran has the missile technology to hit Israel.

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:14 (eighteen years ago) link

A graphic representation:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40144000/gif/_40144948_iran_missile2_map203.gif

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:26 (eighteen years ago) link

What would the point of them attacking Israel be, other than to get their ass dumped on by the FIFTY bombs the Israelis have?

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:40 (eighteen years ago) link

it would create another pole around which world politics would have to move.

geoff (gcannon), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:44 (eighteen years ago) link

that'd be a pretty awesome way to deliver that shit, esp if you could get the robots to work. get 200 warheads and a tugboat crew, throw some tarp on it, and pow - byebye bloombergville.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:51 (eighteen years ago) link

debito - they don't actually have that missile you're talking about!

vahid (vahid), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:57 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm not a fan of the Bush administration or the Iraq invasion, but I have to say that I'm disturbed by people here (and elsewhere) who let their dislike for the US lead them to saying that they have no problem with Iran going nuclear. That's just not a good thing, and you know it.

But saying that doesn't mean you think the country should be invaded. (Anyway, Israel will do it no matter what you think, if someone else doesn't.)

mitya don't need no friggin' password, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 05:34 (eighteen years ago) link

OK, but is it a good thing for Israel to do it? I mean, if random country A invaded or bombed the fuck out of random country B, they would be looking at at Security Council resolutions, sanctions, possible international coalition to stop their invasion. Should the West support an Israeli action against Iran (by not invoking all this kind of stuff) or let them get on with it in a tacit "well done" kind of way?

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 11:09 (eighteen years ago) link

in a recent 'west wing' ep (ie series 6), it was TEH BRITISHES who were gonna wet up the eye-ranians after they downed an airliner (they thought it was a US spyplane!). leo and bartlet had to talk us hotheads down.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 11:18 (eighteen years ago) link

I missed that episode of that documentary series.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 11:23 (eighteen years ago) link

in reality of course a Security Council resolution would have solved everything.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 11:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes, then hopefully it’ll start the mother of all wars and everyone will start nuking each other then the world will die and I won’t have to go to work anymore.

not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:13 (eighteen years ago) link

otm.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:18 (eighteen years ago) link

being french i believe we will manage to keep out of the armagedon and then keep our smooth way of life once it's all over !

AleXTC (AleXTC), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:33 (eighteen years ago) link

then the world will die and I won’t have to go to work anymore

what, not even in a post-holocaust agrarian society peopled by adults with the minds of children?

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:38 (eighteen years ago) link

i think america should have conscription and invade, and maybe that way they will think twice about being supreme rulers of the universe at long bloody last.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 12:40 (eighteen years ago) link

what, not even in a post-holocaust agrarian society peopled by adults with the minds of children?

hum. never heards of that film. seems interesting. too bad it's unavailable (except for those ready to pay 150$ for a vhs !).

AleXTC (AleXTC), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Vahid - They have it and tested it twice! Read the link or do a search for "Shehab" and find the numerous other news sources and NGOs that report the same thing.

Iran can't build the engines themselves, but North Korea is perfectly willing to sell them.

Clearly Iran is at least a few years away from being able to nuke Israel , and it's hard to imagine why they would. But everything I've read indicates that a nuclear Iran with advanced missile technology is just a matter of time, Iran's desire, and continued help from China, Russia, and North Korea.

Super Cub (Debito), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:37 (eighteen years ago) link

'threads' is out on dvd in the uk

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 13:40 (eighteen years ago) link

yus, it is indeed. i got it for christmas. (along with "dr strangelove" and the vastly overdue DVD release of "when the wind blows": you can see a theme here, can't you?)

it is the single bleakest thing i have ever seen. absolutely fucking astonishing.

and continued help from China, Russia

this seems to be key at the moment: the "talks" this week seem to have been very much about putting pressure on those two ... although from what i understand russia isn't exactly enamoured by the latest nuclear developments either.

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 14:03 (eighteen years ago) link

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200412/fallows

behavior, it would have no incentive for restraint.

What about a pre-emptive strike of our own, like the Osirak raid? The problem is that Iran's nuclear program is now much more advanced than Iraq's was at the time of the raid. Already the U.S. government has no way of knowing exactly how many sites Iran has, or how many it would be able to destroy, or how much time it would buy in doing so. Worse, it would have no way of predicting the long-term strategic impact of such a strike. A strike might delay by three years Iran's attainment of its goal—but at the cost of further embittering the regime and its people. Iran's intentions when it did get the bomb would be all the more hostile.

Here the United States faces what the military refers to as a "branches and sequels" decision—that is, an assessment of best and second-best outcomes. It would prefer that Iran never obtain nuclear weapons. But if Iran does, America would like Iran to see itself more or less as India does—as a regional power whose nuclear status symbolizes its strength relative to regional rivals, but whose very attainment of this position makes it more committed to defending the status quo. The United States would prefer, of course, that Iran not reach a new level of power with a vendetta against America. One of our panelists thought that a strike would help the United States, simply by buying time. The rest disagreed. Iran would rebuild after a strike, and from that point on it would be much more reluctant to be talked or bargained out of pursuing its goals—and it would have far more reason, once armed, to use nuclear weapons to America's detriment.

Most of our panelists felt that the case against a U.S. strike was all the more powerful against an Israeli strike. With its much smaller air force and much more limited freedom to use airspace, Israel would probably do even less "helpful" damage to Iranian sites. The hostile reaction—against both Israel and the United States—would be potentially more lethal to both Israel and its strongest backer.

A realistic awareness of these constraints will put the next President in an awkward position. In the end, according to our panelists, he should understand that he cannot prudently order an attack on Iran. But his chances of negotiating his way out of the situation will be greater if the Iranians don't know that. He will have to brandish the threat of a possible attack while offering the incentive of economic and diplomatic favors should Iran abandon its plans. "If you say there is no acceptable military option, then you end any possibility that there will be a non-nuclear Iran," David Kay said after the war game. "If the Iranians believe they will not suffer any harm, they will go right ahead." Hammes agreed: "The threat is always an important part of the negotiating process. But you want to fool the enemy, not fool yourself. You can't delude yourself into thinking you can do something you can't." Is it therefore irresponsible to say in public, as our participants did and we do here, that the United States has no military solution to the Iran problem? Hammes said no. Iran could not be sure that an American President, seeing what he considered to be clear provocation, would not strike. "You can never assume that just because a government knows something is unviable, it won't go ahead and do it. The Iraqis knew it was not viable to invade Iran, but they still did it. History shows that countries make very serious mistakes."

So this is how the war game turned out: with a finding that the next American President must, through bluff and patience, change the actions of a government whose motives he does not understand well, and over which his influence is limited. "After all this effort, I am left with two simple sentences for policymakers," Sam Gardiner said of his exercise. "You have no military solution for the issues of Iran. And you have to make diplomacy work."

,, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 14:30 (eighteen years ago) link

oops fucked up the paste, 1st para was -

But for the purposes most likely to interest the next American President—that is, as a tool to slow or stop Iran's progress toward nuclear weaponry—the available military options are likely to fail in the long term. A full-scale "regime change" operation has both obvious and hidden risks. The obvious ones are that the United States lacks enough manpower and equipment to take on Iran while still tied down in Iraq, and that domestic and international objections would be enormous. The most important hidden problem, exposed in the war-game discussions, was that a full assault would require such drawn-out preparations that the Iranian government would know months in advance what was coming. Its leaders would have every incentive to strike pre-emptively in their own defense. Unlike Saddam Hussein's Iraq, a threatened Iran would have many ways to harm America and its interests. Apart from cross-border disruptions in Iraq, it might form an outright alliance with al-Qaeda to support major new attacks within the United States. It could work with other oil producers to punish America economically. It could, as Hammes warned, apply the logic of "asymmetric," or "fourth-generation," warfare, in which a superficially weak adversary avoids a direct challenge to U.S. military power and instead strikes the most vulnerable points in American civilian society, as al-Qaeda did on 9/11. If it thought that the U.S. goal was to install a wholly new regime rather than to change the current regime's behavior, it would have no incentive for restraint.

,, Wednesday, 18 January 2006 14:35 (eighteen years ago) link

'threads' is out on dvd in the uk

oh great. thanx for the link ! i'm gonna order it right now... (should be good to watch it with some junk food !).

AleXTC (AleXTC), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 14:38 (eighteen years ago) link

is there anyplace in the US that I can rent "Threads" from (an online service, obv.) I really don't feel the need to buy a Region 2 video that I have to watch on my computer.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 14:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I've thought of something that is kind of obvious but had not occured to me - basically, if Israel were to attack Iran, they would almost certainly have to fly through Iraq to do it, which means that the USA would either have to allow their planes through or shoot them down. Basically, the USA cannot subcontract this to Israel without taking the jip for doing it.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:18 (eighteen years ago) link

depends on the range of the planes/whether israel has mid-air refuelling capabilities.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:22 (eighteen years ago) link

well... what other routes could they take? Through Turkey or through Saudi Arabia, I reckon. Again, depends on range. I've lost track, do either of these American allies have US fighter planes based in them? Would either of their own air forces have the capability of taking down any Israeli bomber planes en route to Iran?

Turkey is kind of an Israeli ally, so they might turn a blind eye to Israeli overflights, though that would mean their reaping the hurricane of Iranian vengeance.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

they could fly over water the whole route.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link

bit of a detour.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link

over the red sea.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:38 (eighteen years ago) link

The Iranians would never expect that. I suppose if they could fly commandos to Uganda they could fly bomber planes all the way around Saudi Arabia, but it does sound like the whole thing would be so complicated you are asking for an Iran-hostage-rescue-mission style fuckup.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:39 (eighteen years ago) link

i can't imagine our government, no matter how insane, letting israel drop nukes while our planes are within intercept distance.

and anyway, is israel that apocalyptic? i would think not.
m.

msp (mspa), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:57 (eighteen years ago) link

i can't imagine our government, no matter how insane, letting israel drop nukes while our planes are within intercept distance.

israel wouldn't have to use nukes.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:59 (eighteen years ago) link

ahh... that would change things.
m.

msp (mspa), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 15:59 (eighteen years ago) link

A lot would depend on Israel's intelligence... assuming Iran is developing a nuclear bomb, do they know where all the Iranian bomb development centres are? It would be a bit embarrassing if i) the Iranians were further along than everyone thought ii) the Israelis missed one development centre iii) the Iranians retaliated by dropping a nuclear warhead on somewhere likely to cause consternation.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 16:03 (eighteen years ago) link


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