Chapo Trap House and the rise of the dirtbag left

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (8884 of them)

as someone who's been working hard to fend off the useless side of despair it's been validating to hear the chapos struggle with the same thing

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Tuesday, 30 October 2018 17:24 (five years ago) link

I love Chapo but their econ shows are so bad. Instead of getting a qualified MMT/left-wing econ/finance expert on they always have some absolute fucking nobody come on to spout nonsense like "banks take 90% of your checking account and buy shares in oil pipelines"

— Quantian (@quantian1) October 26, 2018

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 1 November 2018 20:18 (five years ago) link

I love Chapo but their econ shows are so bad. Instead of getting a qualified MMT...

first sentence: good; second sentence: bad

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 1 November 2018 20:48 (five years ago) link

MMT is to the modern left what the Gold Standard is to AnCaps afaict

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 1 November 2018 20:49 (five years ago) link

The underlying principle of MMT makes sense to me, it's just the whole "and therefore the govt can do infinite spending" conclusion that I take some issue with.

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, 1 November 2018 20:52 (five years ago) link

flopson posted this quote in the econ thread a while back which i think explains it quite well (i know nothing about economics):

Modern monetary theory (MMT) in a nutshell, at least as far as I see it, goes something like this. Back in the 1990s a couple of clever guys came up with the idea of a government-provided jobs guarantee. They realized that this program would be seen by the public as an expensive boondoggle requiring sky-high taxes and huge debts. Could they outflank these criticisms by finding another way to fund the jobs guarantee?
To find the funds the early MMTers worked backwards through the labyrinthine relationship between the Federal Reserve and the Treasury. What they claimed to have discovered at the end of their trek was certainly shocking. The US Treasury, they said, funds itself not by the conventional route of taxes and bonds, but by creating and directly spending fiat (i.e. inconvertible) money. Furthermore, it is not only the government's prerogative, but its obligation to spend this money into existence, since people need a stock of fiat money to pay their taxes. Bonds, contrary to what most of us think, are not a sign of government indebtedness—rather, they drain spending.

This bit of monetary jiu-jitsu is powerful because it has the ability to disarm people's instinctual aversion to expensive social programs. If all it takes to fund a jobs guarantee is that the government spend money, and debt and taxes are not the great evils we have been trained to think, then why resist it?

Most governments don't create fiat money—their central banks do. For a government to have this power, it needs to be able to force its central bank to add new money to the government account. One way to do this is for the government to print up a bond and give it to the central bank. The central bank then credits the government's account for the full amount of the bond, and now the government can spend, say on a jobs guarantee. Alternatively, the transaction can be completed without the transferral of the bond—just have the central bank automatically credit the government's account prior to spending. When the government can require its central bank to create money on its behalf, we say that they are effectively consolidated into one entity.

The earliest MMT tome, Wray's Understanding Modern Money, is very insistent on the consolidated nature of the Fed-Treasury:
"The important thing to notice is that the Treasury spends before and without regard to either previous receipt of taxes or prior bond sales."

"...permanent consolidated government deficits are the theoretical and practical norm in a modern economy... Further, government spending is always financed through creation of fiat money - rather than through tax revenues or bond sales."

"While it appears that the Treasury 'needs' the tax revenue so that it can spend, that is clearly a superficial view... The government certainly does not need to have its own IOU returned before it can spend; rather, the public needs the government's IOU before it can pay taxes."

Now as their critics were quick to point out (see Lavoie, for instance), the relationship between Fed and Treasury is such that the two are not consolidated. The Treasury cannot ask the Fed to credit its account, nor can the Treasury print up a bond and give it to the Fed in exchange for spending power. The only way the Treasury can spend is by moving previously acquired funds that are held in the private banking system into its Federal Reserve account—and the only way it can acquire these funds is through taxes and bond issues. Using the Fed to print money and fund a jobs guarantee program is impossible.

The MMT wish, it would seem, was the father to the thought—Wray's 1998 tome was too hasty in consolidating the Fed and Treasury. MMTers are left with an intriguing theory of how modern money works, yet their theory corresponds to no underlying reality. That doesn't mean that MMT is without some merits. MMTers are hackers. In their efforts to reverse engineer the Fed-Treasury nexus in order to fund their pet project, they've come across plenty of interesting minutiae about monetary operations. MMT papers and blogs go into these details and are worth reading if you want to hone your understanding of the monetary system [just take anything they say about consolidation with a grain of salt].

Has the lack of overlap between Wray 1998's theory and reality stopped MMTers? Not at all. When your theory doesn't describe reality, don't bother changing your theory—change reality so that it conforms to your theory. Enter the platinum coin.

The idea of issuing a trillion dollar platinum coin rose to prominence with the onset of yet another US debt ceiling crisis. The MMT blogs hummed about the coin, a huge coin crescendo grew on Twitter, and the issue went all the way to the White House, which demurred. My hunch is that beating the debt ceiling is only a tertiary motive for MMTer excitement over the platinum coin. Far more important to them is that the platinum coin, if implemented, will effectively consolidate the Fed and Treasury, finally redeeming Wray 1998. This opens to door to their beloved jobs guarantee.

I'm not sure how MMT will evolve, but one thing we'll probably see more of is platinum coin-style activism. Though the rest of world has moved on from the coin, the MMT blogs are still buzzing about it. I'm sure more clever ways to hack the Fed-Treasury nexus will be found, thereby giving the Treasury other routes by which to force Bernanke or whomever follows him to print dollars on demand. These hack-arounds will be publicized. Perhaps a political movement will form. This wouldn't be unique. All sorts parties have formed around monetary ideas—Greenbackism, Free Silver, and Social Credit.

http://jpkoning.blogspot.ca/2013/01/meandering-from-mmt-and-platinum-coin.html

sorry for derailing the chapo thread podcast fans

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 1 November 2018 21:16 (five years ago) link

The underlying principle of MMT makes sense to me, it's just the whole "and therefore the govt can do infinite spending" conclusion that I take some issue with.

― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Thursday, November 1, 2018 1:52 PM (fifty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well nobody's tried it yet!

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Thursday, 1 November 2018 21:43 (five years ago) link

Fwiw I endorse derailment itt

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Thursday, 1 November 2018 22:02 (five years ago) link

Marshall Steinbaum is the economist that badly needs to go on chapo

flopson, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:36 (five years ago) link

the dual-pronged attack of MMT and bitcoin/blockchain has made talking to econ-curious leftists so painful

flopson, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:39 (five years ago) link

Those are ideologically opposed projects!

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Friday, 2 November 2018 00:42 (five years ago) link

MMT is enjoying a renaissance on the young left due in no small part to Bernie's economic advisor being a booster

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:49 (five years ago) link

I don't even know any leftists who like BTC/blockchain. It's ancaps and techno-libertarians all the way down.

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Friday, 2 November 2018 00:50 (five years ago) link

I work ~in this space~ at the moment so it's particularly annoying to me lol

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Friday, 2 November 2018 00:50 (five years ago) link

xp hoos- maybe that made an impact, but i think the MMT people actually put a lot of work into making it into a movement. it's actually kind of impressive tbh

flopson, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:52 (five years ago) link

This prompts me to recall the time I was watching a friend play a Civ-style game and he asked "how much should I spend on transportation infrastructure" and I said casually 'spend it all, money is fake,' to which he says "whatever you say I do, Robert Mugabe!"

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:53 (five years ago) link

Yeah flops you're right about that--and the advisor I have in mind thinks of herself as one of those people!

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:53 (five years ago) link

xp simon- blockchain has a hold on the left; different circles than MMT but it's there ime

flopson, Friday, 2 November 2018 00:56 (five years ago) link

if you c an direct me to where they congregate I'd be interested to see what they're on about

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Friday, 2 November 2018 11:42 (five years ago) link

https://majorityreportradio.com/2018/10/31/10-31-a-very-dumb-dumb-halloween-unlocked

A little obscure maybe, but this parody of Jimmy Dore and like Youtube leftists is a bit like a Chapo opening bit extended to an hour. Some parts very funny.

President Keyes, Friday, 2 November 2018 15:55 (five years ago) link

ugh jimmy dore

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 2 November 2018 16:00 (five years ago) link

jimmy dore on leftist blockchain

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Friday, 2 November 2018 17:06 (five years ago) link

jimmy don'the

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 2 November 2018 17:26 (five years ago) link

the only good left youtuber, AFAICT, is Contrapoints

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Friday, 2 November 2018 17:27 (five years ago) link

the only good left youtuber, AFAICT, is Contrapoints

fixed it

fred-a van vleet (voodoo chili), Friday, 2 November 2018 17:34 (five years ago) link

yes how silly of me

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Friday, 2 November 2018 17:37 (five years ago) link

They're doing an election results livestream on Tuesday which might serve as a nice alternative for folks stressed out by CNN and the like

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Monday, 5 November 2018 05:04 (five years ago) link

ooh yeah that does sound good

flappy bird, Monday, 5 November 2018 05:48 (five years ago) link

Virgil wins with line of the show about Ted Cruz as the subject of a clickbait article

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Monday, 5 November 2018 07:21 (five years ago) link

Chapo Election Twitch stream will have EVERYTHING! Wonks, wags, whigs, journalists, cut-ups, and candidates. But most importantly...YOU! Starting 7:30 tomorrow night at https://t.co/KYnxdl89kg pic.twitter.com/DDIpUUFMMT

— Gray Wolf Blitzer (@cushbomb) November 6, 2018

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Tuesday, 6 November 2018 00:10 (five years ago) link

I bet Felix is going to be Twitching at the same time, the first internecine conflict begins.

louise ck (milo z), Tuesday, 6 November 2018 00:50 (five years ago) link

Oh my, Matt is fuuuuuuuucked up

louise ck (milo z), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 04:36 (five years ago) link

https://i.imgur.com/ZBu8PfV.jpg

louise ck (milo z), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 04:50 (five years ago) link

Virgil has done yeoman's work tonight in trying to hold the ship together

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 05:18 (five years ago) link

Matt was drunk enough that even Breetbort reported on it

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 07:09 (five years ago) link

i’ve been drunk before but never beetbort-reporting-level drunk, great job matt

https://i.redd.it/wlmcxo6zwuw11.jpg

i want donald duck to scream into my dick (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 09:47 (five years ago) link

ahahaha

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 10:45 (five years ago) link

but seriously man be kinder to yr liver

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 10:46 (five years ago) link

Jeez yeah that's grim

Greta Van Fleek (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 13:57 (five years ago) link

Posted 16 hours ago

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp27BG1lF6y/

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 15:50 (five years ago) link

that breitbart tweet is so fucking funny

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 November 2018 16:08 (five years ago) link

did matt just assume it was his job to get insanely fucked up last night? feel bad for virgil.

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:02 (five years ago) link

is the stream archived anywhere?

Greta Van Fleek (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:02 (five years ago) link

the 'oh fuck this is a shitshow' look on will's face after matt almost falls over

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:15 (five years ago) link

archive of the stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXObKJzOWfY

ヽ(´ー`)┌ (CompuPost), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:16 (five years ago) link

Ha, the cut away at 4:31:00

http://michaelnorthrop.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/technical-difficulties.png

jmm, Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:22 (five years ago) link

will def bringing the ‘exasperated kindergarten teacher’ vibe to the stream

i want donald duck to scream into my dick (bizarro gazzara), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:24 (five years ago) link

i'll wait for the highlight/lowlight supercut

wayne trotsky (Simon H.), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:28 (five years ago) link

I’m so mortified at just the stills, you could not pay me to watch that

coetzee.cx (wins), Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:28 (five years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.