hall of fame, next vote...

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Without checking (I might be forgetting somebody obvious), my recollection is that Clark was the consensus choice as the game's best first baseman between peak-Mattingly and the emergence of Thomas/Bagwell. McGriff was there with him as a hitter, but Clark was viewed as the more complete player.

another lost pitcher of the '80s

There are so many of them, starting with Stieb. The Stieb/Fernando/Gooden/Viola/Hershiser/Soto/Saberhagen generation. Plus a few more.

clemenza, Monday, 5 November 2018 22:36 (five years ago) link

orel looks pretty good next to morris and catfish hunter, but yeah

will clark's numbers are not a great deal better than jack clark's, and no one ever accused the latter of being a hall of famer (except for when he played against the pirates)

mookieproof, Monday, 5 November 2018 22:41 (five years ago) link

Not a Hall of Famer, but he was pretty damn good. He was one of a group of players I associate with the early Abstracts, players of whom James was always saying that fans have no idea how good this guy is--Bobby Grich, Gene Tenace, Darrell Evans, Brian Downing, Jack Clark. His 1987 season was huge (helped along by a league-wide offensive blip).

clemenza, Monday, 5 November 2018 23:01 (five years ago) link

Am I an idiot? I don’t remember a Soto.

Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Monday, 5 November 2018 23:05 (five years ago) link

mario soto, cincinnati reds

did he succumb to injuries? he had 4 straight years of ~250 innings, then poof, out of the majors at age 32

Karl Malone, Monday, 5 November 2018 23:07 (five years ago) link

Mario Soto was incredible, he had a couple of massive years.

I also remember Steve Rogers and John Candelaria.

omar little, Monday, 5 November 2018 23:09 (five years ago) link

Along with Stieb, probably the best pitcher in baseball from '80 to '84. He went 5/-/9/2/6 in Cy Young voting, and the year he didn't place, the strike year, he was 12-9 (which I mention out of habit), 3.29, with very good peripheral stats. He must have blown his arm out, but I don't remember.

clemenza, Monday, 5 November 2018 23:58 (five years ago) link

let us also reflect on dewey evans

mookieproof, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 00:00 (five years ago) link

*leans back in a creaky chair*

aw yes, dwight "the dewster" evans. i think he should be in the hall! he was good at pretty much everything (except running), played almost his whole career with the red sox (more games than any other player except for yaz), played in a big market, hit a bunch of home runs, won a bunch of gold gloves (a wonderful, fair award that means a lot)

would he qualify for this modern era ballot, though?

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 00:49 (five years ago) link

or sorry, the "today's game" ballot

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 00:50 (five years ago) link

Dwight Evans--who peaked at 10% and didn't make it to a fourth ballot--would be one of the first guys I'd put in among players who didn't get a fair hearing. The biggest obstacle he faced, I think, is that he peaked so late; a certain idea took hold early in his career, that he was the other guy behind Yastrzemski, Lynn, and Rice, great glove and not much offense, and then from '81-89 (with one off year), he just got better and better. He was one of the best players in his 30s from the past few decades.

clemenza, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 01:26 (five years ago) link

And still the greatest play I've ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeLpoYvA-MU

clemenza, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 01:27 (five years ago) link

would he qualify for this modern era ballot, though?

How do you qualify? Is it just playing within a certain time frame, or do you have to fill out a form or something?

clemenza, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 01:32 (five years ago) link

The Modern Baseball Era Committee chooses the candidates. they're supposed to choose players, umpires or executives who made a significant "contribution" during a certain era. in the case of the modern era, that's 1970-87, so maybe he'll get another shot next time the modern era vote comes up.

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 01:49 (five years ago) link

if Steinbush III gets in, it's time to waive in Bonds, Clemens, Shoeless Joe, Cicotte, Carl Mays, Rose, Sauron...

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 6 November 2018 02:27 (five years ago) link

I think he's the only one on the VC ballot who *will* get in eventually ...

NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 04:51 (five years ago) link

Baines, Luzinski, ?

clemenza, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 05:44 (five years ago) link

Steve Kemp!

omar little, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 06:07 (five years ago) link

That's weird. I figured it had to do with RBI, checked and found out that Baines and Luzinski had 100+ in 1982, but Kemp ended up with 98. I guess the photo was taken sometime in September.

clemenza, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 12:27 (five years ago) link

that's some pretty optimistic thinking on their part.

i thought it might have had to do with the 1983 White Sox reaching 100 wins, but not only did they only win 99 but Steve Kemp was on the Yankees that year.

also i always forget what a beast Luzinski was; i tended to file him in with guys like Gorman Thomas and Tony Armas, but he was a step above. immense power, hit for a decent average at his peak, walked a lot. finished second in the MVP race twice.

omar little, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 16:46 (five years ago) link

I'll cut-and-paste a bit of Posnanski's rundown:

Harold Baines (38.7 WAR) -- Professional hitter, almost 2,900 hits, 384 homers, professional hitter.

Albert Belle (40.1 WAR) -- Slugger, controversial, had a 50-homer, 50-double season, should have won an MVP but didn't, hip injury ended his career prematurely.

Joe Carter (19.6 WAR) -- RBI man, good guy, hit one of only two World Series walk-off homers, touch 'em all Joe.

Will Clark (56.5 WAR) -- Clayton Kershaw copied his swing, .300 hitter, six-me all-star, underappreciated.

Orel Hershiser (51.6 WAR) -- Bulldog, absurd 1988 season, won 200 games in his career, set consecutive scoreless inning record.

Davey Johnson -- Won everywhere as manager. Got fired everywhere as manager. His 42 homers in 1973 still a record for second basemen.

Charlie Manuel -- Ol Charlie, hitting genius, led Phillies to World Series crown and five consecutive division titles, made Jim Thome great.

Lou Piniella -- Sweet Lou, managed 1990 Reds to title, managed 2001 Mariners to 116 wins, feisty as hitter and skipper.

Lee Smith (29.4 WAR) -- Lee Arthur, in the first class of one-inning closers, set all-time saves record, intimidating nice guy.

I like the Freudian slip of "six-me all-star," so I left it in. Concur about Belle's non-MVP--one of the more mystifying picks of my lifetime. (Or worst...it's not like I'm actually mystified as to why Vaughn won.)

clemenza, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 23:02 (five years ago) link

1995, never forget: Vaughn had 12 first-place votes, Belle had 11, Edgar had 4, and Jose Mesa had 1.

omar little, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 23:08 (five years ago) link

the top two guys in bWAR that year: Randy Johnson (8.6) and John Valentin (8.3)

omar little, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 23:11 (five years ago) link

Belle had a very good case in 1998 (as did A-Rod/Garciaparra/Jeter/Clemens) but i guess the voters figured Juan Gone was overdue for a second trophy.

omar little, Tuesday, 6 November 2018 23:13 (five years ago) link

I probably would have voted for Jeter that year.

clemenza, Wednesday, 7 November 2018 12:35 (five years ago) link

i'm glad the hard-on MVP voters had for RBI and save dudes seems to have substantially diminished. Twenty years ago I suspect J.D. Martinez might have won the prize.

omar little, Wednesday, 7 November 2018 17:06 (five years ago) link

Posanski has Mussina #87 on his Top 100, with a long list of all his near-misses on the things that grab headlines--how many times he almost won 20, almost pitched a no-hitter, almost won the Cy, etc. I think he'll very likely get in this year: Rivera and Halladay, plus--four at a time has happened twice in the past four votes--Mussina and Edgar.

clemenza, Sunday, 18 November 2018 17:11 (five years ago) link

Two of the sabermetric favorites for induction: Lofton & Mussina.

clemenza, Sunday, 18 November 2018 23:43 (five years ago) link

My first impression ballot:

Bonds, Clemens & Rivera (possibly the best ever at their position)
Mussina, Schilling & Halladay (other pitchers)
Walker, Rolen, Manny & Andruw (other hitters)

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Monday, 19 November 2018 18:57 (five years ago) link

wait, swap Edgar with Andruw :(

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Monday, 19 November 2018 18:57 (five years ago) link

my guess: Edgar, Mussina, Rivera, Halladay

I also suspect after last year's results and with fewer legit candidates, there will be a major bump in votes for Walker and Rolen. Maybe not enough to get Walker into position for 2020 induction but decent enough. Schilling might get a bump too, but fuck him.

omar little, Monday, 19 November 2018 19:12 (five years ago) link

it'll be interesting to see how Todd Helton fares. if Walker doesn't get in, Helton has no chance.

Karl Malone, Monday, 19 November 2018 19:21 (five years ago) link

i'll be interested to see how many votes andy pettitte gets, for a number of reasons

mookieproof, Monday, 19 November 2018 19:26 (five years ago) link

Through age 30:

Player A: 368 BB, 1072 H, 1356 TB, 333 RBI, 19.5 WAR
Player B: 263 BB, 539 H, 885 TB, 217 RBI, 19.1 WAR

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Monday, 19 November 2018 23:49 (five years ago) link

if Walker doesn't get in, Helton has no chance

Agree--Walker was clearly the better player, I think.

clemenza, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 01:08 (five years ago) link

Through age 30:

Player A: 368 BB, 1072 H, 1356 TB, 333 RBI, 19.5 WAR
Player B: 263 BB, 539 H, 885 TB, 217 RBI, 19.1 WAR

― reggae mike love (polyphonic), Monday, November 19, 2018 6:49 PM (two hours ago)

pretty impossible to play this game without slash stats lol, & clearly they have very different defensive values

k3vin k., Tuesday, 20 November 2018 02:24 (five years ago) link

A is Omar Vizquel, and B is Edgar.

Suffice to say that Edgar did most of his damage in his thirties.

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 02:50 (five years ago) link

upcoming HOF candidates that some people might make an argument for:

Jeter
Abreu
Giambi
Soriano
Konerko
Hudson
Buehrle
Hunter
A-Rod
Ortiz
Teixeira
Suzuki
Beltre
Mauer
Utley
Wright

Maybe I'm missing some here, idk. lots of these guys have absolutely zero chance of making it but even those guys have superficially impressive numbers to an extent.

omar little, Tuesday, 20 November 2018 16:18 (five years ago) link

I'd vote for A-Rod, Jeter, Ichiro, Beltre, and Utley from that list and none of the rest.

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Tuesday, 20 November 2018 20:13 (five years ago) link

yeah that seems about right, and they will probably all go in at some point. ortiz is also a lock

k3vin k., Tuesday, 20 November 2018 22:30 (five years ago) link

I would put in Ortiz before I'd put in Utley, and that's a good test case of whether you think the HOF should be a strict numerical accounting--your WAR, essentially--or whether you think there's more to it that that. I'm not saying one approach or the other is correct. Utley's peak was so strong, he's 10 WAR ahead of Ortiz. But Utley didn't do a whole lot after his 2005-2009 peak--he doesn't fall of the map like Andruw Jones, but he's basically just another second baseman once he hits 31--while the non-WAR (narrative, intangible, call them whatever pejorative you want) arguments for Ortiz are pretty familiar by now.

clemenza, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 13:25 (five years ago) link

i'd put in all of those plus Ortiz, a guy who has obviously been downgraded WAR-wise by never playing defense but i think it's slightly possible it underrates him a bit, he wasn't exactly an empty-calories hitter. he walked a lot, at his peak he scored a ton of runs, he hit for a very good average most of the time. he was no Frank Thomas (though during that three-year stretch from '04-'07 he wasn't that far off) and he's more borderline whereas Big Hurt was a clear shoo-in, but i would vote for him (assuming there was room for him on the ballot with that 10-player limit.) I suspect he's gonna wait a bit bc of the PED speculation, but I also don't think he's a Manny case. maybe more a Bagwell/Piazza one.

Utley's case is made tougher by that brief peak and it's a shame it was Placido Polanco time in Philly for his first couple seasons and he didn't get a full-time shot until a season in which he was 26 on opening day but at this point i also think he's an easy "yes."

omar little, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 17:44 (five years ago) link

would utley's HOF plaque say Chase "Dad" Utley?

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:21 (five years ago) link

JAWS has utley as the 11th-greatest 2B of all time, but i'm not sure how i feel about hof-ing by position -- or at least positions that aren't more demanding than 2B

obviously we *are* hof-ing by position if we've got trevor hoffman, but i don't find the 'everyone better than this one shitty hall of famer deserves enshrinement' argument terribly persuasive.

nevertheless i support a more expansive hall, so i'd vote jeter, a-rod, ortiz, ichiro, beltre, mauer. utley probably deserves it too; i just don't like him

mookieproof, Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:48 (five years ago) link

i don't like Clemens either, but the HOF is a joke unworthy of my attention until he and BB get in.

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 18:50 (five years ago) link

i don't find the 'everyone better than this one shitty hall of famer deserves enshrinement' argument terribly persuasive.

Utley has a better WAR than 11 hall-of-fame 2Bs. His best 7 WAR seasons are on par with Ryne Sandberg. His career OPS+ is better than Roberto Alomar or Craig Biggio. To me, he should be in.

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 19:15 (five years ago) link

I wouldn't mind putting Ortiz in but there are a lot of sluggers coming up who have similar numbers and also played defense.

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Wednesday, 21 November 2018 19:25 (five years ago) link


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