president pence post-trump impeachment could more easily start a war than president trump pre-impeachment
imo, an unelected president from a thoroughly discredited administration would require a damned strong causus belli to bring the nation into a major war. how easily a "pre-impeachment Trump" could drag us into a war would partly depend on which stage of the process is being defined as "pre-impeachment". if serious criminal charges backed by sufficient credible evidence are already known to and widely accepted by the public, that's much different than our present state of affairs.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:37 (five years ago) link
No, it's useless, it won't get rid of the people who voted/supported/enabled this.
― StanM, Monday, 21 January 2019 20:40 (five years ago) link
Cool, the pro-gun debate strategy
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Monday, 21 January 2019 20:40 (five years ago) link
Trump is incompetent at anything but playing the media. Pence does not have that skill. I'll take Pence. Who, by the way, can probably also be impeached by rights.
And as of 3 weeks ago, we were at 40% for impeachment. But just as support for the wall has increased since the shutdown, so will impeachment support once the trial has begun.
― fajita seas, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 00:48 (five years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Monday, 28 January 2019 00:01 (five years ago) link
if there is evidence of impeachable things, he should be impeached.
emoluments seems like a slamdunk to me but only in my nonlegal ignorance
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Monday, 28 January 2019 00:38 (five years ago) link
I do think every future Dem president (if there are any) will be impeached as a result
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Monday, 28 January 2019 00:39 (five years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Tuesday, 29 January 2019 00:01 (five years ago) link
Pelosi gave a solid no today
the dream is over
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 12 March 2019 00:19 (five years ago) link
"It divides the nation." erm...
― calumy (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 12 March 2019 00:28 (five years ago) link
things can always get more divided
and they will
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 12 March 2019 00:30 (five years ago) link
Crowded House thread is elsewhere
― fuck the NRA (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 12 March 2019 00:38 (five years ago) link
hey now
― calumy (rip van wanko), Tuesday, 12 March 2019 01:11 (five years ago) link
trying to catch the deluge in a paper cup
― Let's have sensible centrist armageddon (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 12 March 2019 01:15 (five years ago) link
I never really understood how it was possible to successfully impeach in the first place
― anvil, Tuesday, 12 March 2019 02:40 (five years ago) link
only 20 months till he can be voted out anyway. Seems a more reliable method of removal (though at this point I've lost all track of what is up and what is down)
― anvil, Saturday, 23 March 2019 20:38 (five years ago) link
As I get older & lose faith in the world, I wouldn't be surprised if he gets re-elected.
― D. Joe, Saturday, 23 March 2019 22:24 (five years ago) link
Pareene: "Democrats who preemptively declare impeachment off the table are mistakenly (or intentionally) conflating one possible end result of the impeachment process for the process itself."
https://newrepublic.com/article/153629/democrats-hoping-dont-understand-impeachment-entails
― jaymc, Friday, 19 April 2019 17:38 (five years ago) link
https://crooked.com/articles/democrats-impeachment-mueller/
― these are not all of the possible side effects (Karl Malone), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:00 (five years ago) link
...House intelligence committee chairman Adam Schiff, who among Democrats has the best handle on the details of the Russia scandal, nevertheless echoed Hoyer Thursday saying he learned as a prosecutor, “you don’t bring a case if you don’t think you’re going to be successful just to try the case,” and thus “barring a bipartisan consensus” impeachment should be off the table. This argument has been an inducement to Republican lawlessness since Schiff first offered it last year, and it is fatally misguided. It presupposes that if press releases and headline writers don’t move public opinion on their own, then all options are exhausted. That if Republicans refuse to support the impeachment of a president who needs to be impeached, Democrats are out of options and must throw up their hands.In reality, the job of persuading the public that the president needs to be impeached falls to the leaders of the House of Representatives themselves. Unlike prosecutors, they don’t infringe on anyone’s liberties by trying a case they think they might lose. Unlike prosecutors, their decision to decline warranted charges can create lasting precedents and perverse incentives. Unlike prosecutors, their trials aren’t zero-sum affairs, because trying a case well and losing can have salutary benefits for their party and the country. Going down swinging can be good politics, and set important precedents. Unlike prosecutors they can’t select their jurors, but also unlike prosecutors, they are not discouraged from trying the case in public. To the contrary, it is their obligation. And if the Mueller report makes one thing clear it’s that if Democrats fail to meet that obligation, Trump won’t be chastened—to the contrary, he will be more emboldened in his abuses of power, and the country will be in even greater danger.
In reality, the job of persuading the public that the president needs to be impeached falls to the leaders of the House of Representatives themselves. Unlike prosecutors, they don’t infringe on anyone’s liberties by trying a case they think they might lose. Unlike prosecutors, their decision to decline warranted charges can create lasting precedents and perverse incentives. Unlike prosecutors, their trials aren’t zero-sum affairs, because trying a case well and losing can have salutary benefits for their party and the country. Going down swinging can be good politics, and set important precedents. Unlike prosecutors they can’t select their jurors, but also unlike prosecutors, they are not discouraged from trying the case in public. To the contrary, it is their obligation. And if the Mueller report makes one thing clear it’s that if Democrats fail to meet that obligation, Trump won’t be chastened—to the contrary, he will be more emboldened in his abuses of power, and the country will be in even greater danger.
― these are not all of the possible side effects (Karl Malone), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:02 (five years ago) link
Yes Adam, cases as a prosecutor and Congressional Impeachment work exactly the same way.
― Got your butt drank (Neanderthal), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:07 (five years ago) link
Look, can we all just agree that when another irredeemable piece of shit inevitably decides to follow Trump's wildly successful 'President Supervillain' template, we will discuss with an even greater degree of seriousness all of the reasons why we cannot and should not impeach him/her? That's all I want, really. Grave pronouncements, thoughts, prayers.
― Joan Lunden just stole your laptop and I didn't even try to stop her (Old Lunch), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:24 (five years ago) link
thoughts and prayers is what they do best
― pippin drives a lambo through the gates of isengard (Sparkle Motion), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:30 (five years ago) link
Just like Daddy Mueller, there is no Congress Ex Machina to save us. Give it up. Hasn't anyone read any Pynchon? The machine always wins. Gotta beat him in 2020.
― Mazzy Tsar (PBKR), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:38 (five years ago) link
If my non-voting rep fails to impeach this bastard, I will flail about in the most impassioned manner possible to recruit and elect an alternative candidate in the next race.
― El Tomboto, Friday, 19 April 2019 23:48 (five years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqbEsS5kFb8
the theme song for this and every day
― |Restore| |Restart| |Quit| (Doctor Casino), Friday, 19 April 2019 23:50 (five years ago) link
let's get on with this shit already !
― (•̪●) (carne asada), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:39 (five years ago) link
someone draft the papers and get them over to Nancy ASAP
― (•̪●) (carne asada), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:40 (five years ago) link
https://www.theroot.com/waiting-is-for-white-people-the-privilege-of-not-impea-1834244059
― The Mod Who Banned Liberty Valance (WmC), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:45 (five years ago) link
The now officially documented fact that his subordinates regularly refuse to carry out his orders mean we don’t really have a functioning executive. No one voted for these aides. Isn’g that a reason to impeach?
― Trϵϵship, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:54 (five years ago) link
Reason 853 but still
― Trϵϵship, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:57 (five years ago) link
what is this fucking fear of backfiring or political misstep shit ? Like what they are going to make some imaginary fence sitting assholes vote Trump again if impeachment fails? fuck'em who cares ? if we are counting on those dipshits then we are fucked anyways.
― (•̪●) (carne asada), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 15:59 (five years ago) link
"the more you say he's unfit to lead, the more i wanna vote for him."
― Got your butt drank (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:13 (five years ago) link
“Everyone says he’s dumb and unfit to lead - the same things they say about me and my friends! That’s why I’m voting trump”
― these are not all of the possible side effects (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:34 (five years ago) link
what is this fucking fear of backfiring or political misstep shit
like it or not, impeachment is a deeply, intensely political process and only minimally and peripherally a vehicle for delivering 'justice'. it was designed that way. it cannot be any other way. and if you examine your feelings, I think you'll find your vehemence is almost certainly born of your intensely felt political beliefs and desires, not some abstract desire for truth and calm reasoning about the functioning of the executive branch.
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:42 (five years ago) link
what's weird to me is that anti-impeachment Dems seem to be unafraid of the more likely 'backfiring' scenario: Trump gets reelected in 2020 at which point impeaching him would be basically impossible.
― rob, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:44 (five years ago) link
impeachment is a deeply, intensely political process
this seems a perfectly valid reason to pursue it
― d'ILM for Murder (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:45 (five years ago) link
I mean it's *all* a deeply, intensely political processs, what is the advantage to pretending otherwise when your opponent is going there whether you like it or not
― d'ILM for Murder (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:47 (five years ago) link
heh, yeah, reminds me of that lovely time when a lot of people (including me, for a while) were hoping trump would win the 2016 GOP nomination because he would be so much easier to defeat in the election than establishment faves jeb! or the moral beacon ted cruz
― these are not all of the possible side effects (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:47 (five years ago) link
Even if they dont move immediately into impeachment, they need to get way more aggressive ASAP. Their oversight is being challenged at every step and they are doing little to hit back.
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:48 (five years ago) link
yeah putting the president on trial is not going to *gain* him any votes, his base will be sufficiently demagogued into turning out no matter what congress does
― d'ILM for Murder (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:49 (five years ago) link
i think Trump is really cornered and isolated this time for certain
― omar little, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:50 (five years ago) link
not quite. it is perfectly valid reason to analyze the likely political consequences, and if your analysis is on balance neutral-to-favorable, that is when you pursue it. politics sometimes honors noble failures, but it punishes them just the same.
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:51 (five years ago) link
well of course I don't mean politics for the sake of politics. I mean impeachment has political advantages above and apart from "justice"
― d'ILM for Murder (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 16:59 (five years ago) link
how is it not a good political move to get every single Republican Congressman on the record saying "I support this traitorous criminal idiot. I think he rocks, actually."
― frogbs, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 17:34 (five years ago) link
it is a good political move
― d'ILM for Murder (Hadrian VIII), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 17:36 (five years ago) link
Democratic politicians like to imagine there's a significant portion of the electorate that's turned off by any action not done in the spirit of bipartisan hand holding
― Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 17:37 (five years ago) link
Trump's behaviour just seems to be getting even worse daily despite theissue of this being brought up and presumably being prevalent at least as a pursuable possibility.I'm hearing that there is inevitably going to be a period of further investigation since taht's what hearings would amount to so starting the process seems to be necessary.
But on the other hand some possibility of him being reelected would only mean he would feel absolutely justified in any further action he took. Just hoping also that any further exposure of his crimes might make that reelection unlikely.& at what point doe she cease to be a useful asset because he's shown himself up so badly. Would think that even Putin might pull the plug once he'd outlived usefullness. So he'd be alone trying to get reelected and only have a dimished GOP supporting him.
― Stevolende, Wednesday, 24 April 2019 17:41 (five years ago) link
on the record saying "I support this traitorous criminal idiot. I think he rocks, actually."
Good luck with that. What they will say irl is how "troubled" they were, but that the evidence blah blah blah. Do you honestly believe these people got where they are not knowing how to spin their vote to match the leanings of their constituency?
Voting to impeach and to convict is GREAT politics for winning your vote, because you already are sold on Trump being a "traitorous criminal idiot". But in order for the politics to align with you, a majority of voters need to be sold on that conviction. If they aren't, then going gung-ho, all-in for impeachment is playing with fire, politically. Like I said, a noble failure still fails and will be punished, not rewarded, leaving you worse off, not better.
― A is for (Aimless), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 18:01 (five years ago) link
HRC has spoken! "caution"
and she's an expert
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 24 April 2019 18:25 (five years ago) link