Public Shaming C/D?

Also, the internet is the worst goddamn venue imaginable for shaming (and for most things tbf).

Far as i'm aware mob "justice" is a long-standing phenomenon, the Internet has just created a new vector for it. It's probably not as bad as being stoned or tarred and feathered, mostly. But the nature of mobs makes them unamenable to correction on a person by person level.

ime a lot of ritual internet public shaming is comprised of ppl who were shamed as children and have been carrying around the anger and resentment for years looking for an opportunity to transmit their suffering to someone new (and in their mind more deserving)

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 22, 2019 3:29 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ this aspect seems more explicit than usual wrt smirking-MAGA-kid, lots of people talking about how his facial expression is the one they remember on the faces of the teens who tormented them when they were children. I feel like if this same incident had happened but with e.g. a burly MAGA hat wearing 30-something in place of the kid, it would not have had the same impact, part of the reason people are going in on the kid is *because* of the fact that he's obviously in some ways weaker and more vulnerable than they are, not despite it. like, they know that if they were alone in a room with this kid they could fuck him up, it's like a fantasy of going back in time to confront your childhood bullies now you're bigger and stronger than them. the fact that the subjects of public shaming are often fairly small fry in the great scheme of things is maybe a feature and not a bug of this phenomenon?

related (nb i was about to post this on the other thread) even if he wasn't a kid - attacking/shaming ppl for smirking/making a bad face at the wrong person is too close to thought policing to me. attack ppl for what they say + do not the faces they make imo. i understand lots of u had bad experiences with abusers smirking at you. the crime wasn't the smirk it was the suffering the smirk was covering over. even tho the smirk lives on as an open wound there's imho transference occurring but even if u had hard evidence that he was thinking some hate crime shit while smirking, faces still are not something i think as a society we'll benefit from shaming ppl over.

xpost I took it as this kid is already experiencing the power of being white and he's just going to grow up to be an even shittier adult. I see adult men do that posturing a lot when they are harassing people.

If I felt the need to call out every white dude with resting smirkface I'd never get anything done in a day.

This thread is bad and you should all feel bad

also that it gives people a way to express feeling that would normally be socially unacceptable, like wanting to beat up a schoolkid? some of the responses to those viral stories of white women calling the cops on black people feel like people enjoying a socially acceptable way to express normally forbidden misogynistic vitriol, there's a thrill of transgression

btw those of u who think only white males smirk are fucking lunatics. i have see smug looks from both genders this is an equal opportunity asshole face.

Basically there are a lot of Lee J. Cobb in 12 Angry Mens out in the world

if you've never seen a woman smirk you've never met a woman

as Bryan Adams once sang

Lol

have you ever really
really really ever pwned a woman

ime a lot of ritual internet public shaming is comprised of ppl who were shamed as children and have been carrying around the anger and resentment for years looking for an opportunity to transmit their suffering to someone new (and in their mind more deserving)

The victim becomes the oppressor, often at the first opportunity. Welcome to Earth.

Treeship, how old are you? Knowing this will really help me read and understand your posts, no joke.

ctrl+f for 'only white males smirk'...one result?!? Weird.

Of course y’all would immediately reframe this conversation to remove the actions of the person being shamed from the equation and focus entirely on some bizarre Freudian analysis of the people doing the work of holding them to account

unperson: you often seem like someone who bullies ppl to deal with your own insecurities and history of bullying so maybe knowledge of this information isn't enough to break the cycle?

OL: if you haven't seen the implication that smirking is particularly a crime of the privileged white male and not behavior all humans participate in then i suspect you either haven't been following the discourse around this closely or elided some of the subtext?

Shaming is particularly useful at this historical moment, because we have in place a set of social norms that are a remnant of a more civilized time: before the 2016 election.

They got up that close to your face, mordy? With other women laughing the background. I enjoyed that Bryan Adams song.

The white woman calling 911 on black people is also a very visual/modern signifier of how white women have always been partner to white supremacy and they will do a lot of shitty things to retain what power they do have in it.

Dan I: I don't believe you're an antisemite but maybe there's a lesson to be learnt about how we should judge ppl's words and actions compassionately even when they act like thoughtless assholes even if they may be signaling bigoted beliefs?

Unperson I am 29 and I have asked you to killfile me. Peace xp

Unperson I am 29 and I have asked you to killfile me. Peace xp

Now I have go find that thread about smirky animated characters, a la Kung Fu Panda.

You are all so wrong, here are a whole bunch of people of color smurfing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGD51BXPwa4

Oh wait

Treesh is around 30 but I think he adopts the mindset of a naïf as an exercise, which I can’t really object to

he's just a thoughtful & sensitive person. he's not a naif. he's sometimes soft-spoken.

Watch out for that stick he's carrying though.

xpost maybe he's just a nice guy. Although, since he uses social media that seems impossible.

well idk about a stick

See that’s the thing Mordy, some people deserve public shaming and some don’t. I’m not worried that people will think I’m an anti-Semite because it’s obvious that I’m not. The MAGA hat chuds should be very worried that they will experience the consequences of people thinking that they’re white supremacists—because they are in fact white supremacists

he quits social media all the time tho and then is dragged back in (sorry for talking so much about u tres), i think he finds it physically painful (tho otoh who doesn't)

xp fyi it's not obvious that you're not

wins otm

I've read ethnographic studies on egalitarian societies where shaming is used as a formalized means of social control to keep potential upstarts from getting too big for their britches. The implication being that a dose of mild clowning is strike one but that continued infractions will lead to banishment from the community or, y'know, straight-up execution. Without some formalized structure or an understanding on all sides of what the roles of the shamer and the shame-ee entail, it's kinda just like...aimless vigilante flailing in an attempt to shore up the extent to which our law/society fails to adequately address malignant transgressive behavior.

i give ppl the benefit of the doubt on these sorts of things pretty much always so i'm inclined to say you were just thoughtless and dumb when you made your comments but other ppl disagreed and i wasn't 100% sure myself. xxp

My partner uses absolutely no social media and is like a baby panda.

Aww

I am however apparently a very poor speller in the absence of autocorrect! Xposts

Watch out for that stick he's carrying though.

Stick or shtick?

aimless: vigilante flailing in an attempt to shore up the extent to which our law/society fails to adequately address malignant transgressive behavior.

― E Pluripubis Unum (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 22 January 2019 16:02 (ten minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think he should adopt this persona fwiw

Make it a case study then— Public shaming is about making the truth of someone’s actions widely known. Here’s the video of the chud kids (“full video” or not, take your pick, they don’t come off any better in any version) everybody, here they are captured on film. They aren’t being publicly shamed so much as bringing shame upon themselves

Same thing with dragging a maga hat wearing child into the public square.

Resolved: That a rich Catholic school boy who got bused in with a whole bunch of other rich Catholic school boys to stand around Washington DC telling women they shouldn't be allowed to get abortions didn't get "dragged into" shit.

I think a degree of self-shaming is necessary as a corrective against antisocial behavior but what do you do in a world where a generation of people have watched other people coast to fame (and the White House) on a wave of shamelessness, thus blunting much of the impact and the impetus of shaming?

ie is shame a concept that mostly only holds water with us olds?

eliza d otm.

It’s not about making them feel bad. If the chud kids have a hard time getting into colleges, finding girlfriends, getting jobs, then the public shaming worked.

I feel the same about all convicted felons

I feel like shaming when Cee-Lo says "it's not rape if you don't remember" is valid and necessary.

Public shaming for an unintentional, minor transgression by an individual, less helpful than teachable moment.

Former more common than latter.

MAGA kid can't claim he and his cohorts wore MAGA hats in a very public place, took of their shirts and showed their asses in public, then act like they have any expectation of privacy. Wah wah.

A group representing Nathan Phillips wrongly said he served in Vietnam. Then came the accusations.
There’s no evidence that he’s ever claimed to have served in Vietnam, a representative said
By Dan Lamothe January 23 at 3:11 PM
Nathan Phillips, the U.S. veteran whose standoff with high school students on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial captured viral attention online, has often discussed his military past.

The Native American activist, seen beating a drum Friday as teens from Covington Catholic High School in Kentucky surrounded and mocked him, has referred to himself as a “Vietnam-times” veteran. He described in interviews getting spit on and called a baby killer by a “hippie girl” and told the Detroit Free Press on Saturday that “I’m a Marine Corps veteran, and I know what that mob mentality can be like.”

The sight of him surrounded by a group of teens wearing red baseball hats emblazoned with President Trump’s “Make America great again” campaign slogan and the shifting narratives about the incident afterward have prompted political outcry from conservatives and liberals alike.

Nathan Phillips, center, with other Dakota Access Pipeline protesters in February 2017 near Cannon Ball, N.D. (Mike McCleary/Bismarck Tribune/AP) (Mike Mccleary/AP)
The incident also has led to scrutiny of Phillips’s service record after an organization representing him, the Lakota People’s Law Project, described him as a Vietnam veteran in a news release and numerous media reports identified him as one afterward. Several, including The Washington Post, have since issued corrections.

In reality, Phillips served from June 1972 to May 1976 in the Marine Corps Reserve, a service spokeswoman, Yvonne Carlock, said Wednesday. He did not deploy, and he left the service as a private after disciplinary issues. From October 1972 to February 1973, he was classified as an antitank missileman, a kind of infantryman, Carlock said. He then became a refrigerator technician for the majority of his service.

Daniel Paul Nelson, a leader in the Lakota People’s Law Project, said in an interview that his group made the error and that Phillips never told the group he served in Vietnam. The group, Nelson said, “trusted what we had seen” in previous stories about Phillips, some of which also referred to him erroneously as a Vietnam veteran.

“We were trying to do the advocacy work that we do,” Nelson said.

Phillips, who turns 64 next month, is not old enough to have deployed to Vietnam as a Marine infantryman, prompting accusations that he was lying about his service.

The military will typically provide basic details about a person’s military service within a day, but the situation with Phillips was complicated because he enlisted under another name associated with a family that raised him, Nelson said. He provided Phillips’s full Social Security number to The Post with Phillips’s permission to help clear up the confusion.

On Tuesday night, Donald Shipley, a Navy SEAL veteran who investigates military service records, published a video in which he showed excerpts of Phillips’s service record.

“This is all going into that Native American guy that everybody keeps labeling as a Vietnam vet, and he is not,” Shipley said in the video. “A lot of these news outlets are using that claim of ‘Vietnam vet’ to kind of beef that story up and make it look even worse.”

Shipley, who did not respond to an interview request Wednesday, noted that Phillips enlisted under another name and spent the majority of his time in the military as a refrigerator technician. He questioned how that squares with an April report by Vogue magazine in which Phillips is quoted saying that he was a “recon ranger,” a position that does not exist in the military.

“I have a relative here who said he’d lead the way and scout ahead for us,” Phillips said in the article, which describes a protest at the Standing Rock Sioux reservation in North Dakota. “You know, I’m from Vietnam times. I’m what they call a recon ranger. That was my role. So I thank you for taking that point position for me.”

Nelson said that Phillips’s comments at Standing Rock were taken out of context and that Phillips actually was referring to the work they were doing at the time on the reservation.

In other interviews, Phillips has consistently described being a veteran of “Vietnam times.”

In 2000, he told The Post that he was a patriot who had served as “a Marine Corps infantryman” in the 1970s. He did not claim to have served in Vietnam and did not mention leaving the infantry after a few months to become a refrigerator technician.

In 2015, he described himself in a video interview with MLive as “a Vietnam veteran times” and stated that he served from 1972 to 1976.

Nelson said he did not know Phillips before the uproar but has “incrementally learned about this man’s integrity, and I have not been disappointed.”

With all the scrutiny of Phillips’s military record, he has now been victimized twice, Nelson said.

“It’s definitely a distraction,” he said. “It’s a diversion, in fact. I’d like to make the point that these papers being released demonstrate the most important fact, which is that he was in the military. He did not lie about that, and there are a lot of people who have been in a very irresponsible and vicious manner targeting him without being able to prove that.”

is your liberal history teacher friend a white guy?

Both sides, man. Both sides.

Man randomly stabbed in park may have bounced a check in the '80s. Was he as innocent a bystander as we'd been led to believe?!??!?

Yerac yup

There was a thing recently about why there is that rush to overly defend with all the sexual assault cases that have multiple victims and Kavanaugh, etc. It's easier to identify and feel that that could've been you, you've made that mistake in the past etc etc.

And I recently saw someone in the black community who explicitly did not care about this incident, change his mind. Because if he expects a level of equality and respect of his feelings and viewpoints who is he to say the indigenous community should feel differently or minimize their experience.

also I conflated this thread with the alt right thread w/r/t discussion of tactics, I apologize for that vehemence there rusho - death threats are not cool, "public shaming" seems to be very complex in the social media age and I shld read that book

― sleeve

no worries, i think we're basically in agreement (especially re: using all the tools in the toolbox), when i speak out against rage as a political strategy i'm mostly speaking of my ongoing efforts to reject my white male rage, i don't feel like i have the knowledge or experience to comment on other forms of rage. the thread just started moving so fast that it wasn't really possible, for me at least, to consider what i or other people were saying. another of the many reasons i avoid twitter - also the scale issue ums alludes to, you get 50 million people in a room together and nobody is going to get anything useful out of that.

We allocate more time to writing over each other than we do to reading, that's for sure.

post yeah^^^ and when I talk about rage and anger I am thinking of when I tell other women they should be angrier. Their lack of anger and complacency, such good and civilized behaviour, with how things are directly affects other women who aren't fine. There is the stereotypical picture of the angry feminist "consumed by rage" that circulates, in hope I guess, that women won't want to be seen as not attractive to men, number one priority. I haven't read Rebecca Traister's "Good and Mad" yet. I probably should.

White dude rage is almost always more like loud + demonstrative petulance. Imagine us in a Little Lord Fauntleroy outfit, it's easy if u try.

or when they murder their spouses, partners, strangers...

I'm saying qualitatively. It's not often a righteous expression of anger. I'm not forgetting the thing where the sum of western history is replete with destruction born of that petulance.

when I talk about rage and anger I am thinking of when I tell other women they should be angrier.

i understand -- however
being shamed (see thread title) into demonstrating my anger more publicly so people can see it doesn't seem like a good solution. in fact, it feels divisive (and even a little cruel) considering the effect that anger has on me in particular. i am plenty righteous but expressing it publicly is something i only do irl where people can see and hear my physical self. i don't express anger and rage very much online because it is unproductive and not good for me, like taking a rage pill that gives me a monster hangover.

i am not into public shaming in general tbh

Anger is a human emotion that shouldn’t be repressed. It simply is. Violent, abusive expressions of anger are always wrong (this doesn’t include self defense) but that’s not the same thing as anger itself.

xpost yeah i think we got sidetracked off the original topic. I was probably speaking more generally. And more about real life because I think having an opinion on the internet as a woman, using your real name, is too dangerous.

The issue is never people should be “less angry” about injustice or watch their “tone” or try not to alienate people or whatever—that’s not the issue. People should express themselves.

Public shaming is a separate issue. It’s a tactic that sometimes is necessary—cf. metoo many named in #metoo that weren’t otherwise being held to account—but can sometimes also be ugly and gratuitous and just another case of bullying, completely disconnected from the initial motive of fighting inequality. So it’s situational.

I think I actually sound a lot angrier in writing than I appear in person. It's probably the same amount of anger, but everyone physically handles it/compartmentalizes a different way.

It seems like a lot of ppl come across differently online. Unperson seems to think I am a college freshman.

haha! everyone is envisioning you in your dorm trying to make your first meal. yeah, i mean I would say the same things in person but seeing a person and hearing tone makes all the difference.

My big regret with ilx is that my jokes don’t come axross as well as irl. That or irl people laugh politely.

I mean it's so obvious that it hardly seems worth mentioning and yet also so consistently overlooked that it bears incessant repeating, but so much of the trouble stirred up by contentious online interactions is instantiated by the inability to see other people as like fully-formed people who have a whole existence beyond the typed words you're reading.

Feel like the story of Lindy West confronting her troll may be hella germane wrt this general topic of conversation.

so is public shaming good or bad?

we actually got that sorted ages back

its good when you like it and bad when you dont

i think you mean, 'is it Classic or Dud'