the alt-right

(sorry i don't remember if it was exactly you silby or just someone who sounded an awful lot like you)

lmao I only pull the kool-aid man shtick on here, it’s a release

In real life I don’t know anybody

idealism/principles vs effective strategy/optics is a v old split between the left and the centre, this argt will rage long after we're all dead

Results for politicians, principles for the people, imo

fwiw i disagree that this is a left/centrist split. i think that you can be a leftist and support openly and radically leftist solutions and still think that there are more and less effective ways to pursue them. the division between the left and center should be policy + goals not necessarily tone or strategy.

u don't see AOC opining on this smirking shit (i hope i hope i hope)

i don't think it's idealistic or principled to join a pile on like this

the center (in our society at least) generally wants hawkish foreign policy, neoliberalism at home, austerity, capitalism, the status quo, etc, and uses tone policing to keep legitimate critiques of those things from progressing. but that doesn't mean that worrying about rhetoric and strategy is therefore centrist.

I am not on twitter at all so I need to know specifically where these mobs are located. If they are virtual, regional, irish...

― Yerac, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 21:47 (twenty-three seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ey lady dont pin this shit on us

respectfully, this is fucking dumb. the only reason this story was interesting to talk about was because it completely captivated the attention of the entire nation and led to the kid receiving death threats etc. national publications ran thinkpieces that posited the kid was a symbol of toxic privilge, "we've seen this face before," etc., it wasn't low leven schadenfreude

― Trϵϵship

this thread existed before two days ago, if people want to have a discussion about toxic discourse online i guess that's their right but it seems to me rather like fighting fire with fuel

i guess i should stop posting here and let the rest of you work yourselves into a lather over the latest example of america being bullshit but i'm bored

People can bitch and actively do stuff at the same time. This is not new. (i read the article, he seems fine).

darra, I need you to tell us that we are being too american.

couldn't tell xp

maybe. or maybe the opposite. often the political structure generates the culture, esp when NOP breaks down.

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:46 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

its ourobouric, right, normative culture produces the bounds of political possibility but subcultures can introduce new political horizons built on refreshed norms ("the world is on fire and everything we love is going to burn unless we do something? we're not taking action fast enough, it doesn't matter what the old rules are, we've got to move big and fast") -- in a period of historic polarization it doesn't make any sense to worry about winning over the opposition, you mobilize your people and a segment of the persuadables to win on paper and as the change cements itself over time it becomes the new norm. all this is to say that

there are positive programs that would have huge impact on marginalized communities that don't include picking fights with alt-righters or waging cultural wars.

battles over norms matter, but the fact that people engage in them oughtn't be misunderstood as organized political activity when there are plenty of people actually doing political work while a thousand nobodies flood the phone line of the catholic school's principal

darra, I need you to tell us that we are being too american.

He does that every day and it makes no difference tbf.

i don't think we disagree fwiw xp

if it were up to me we'd all be talking about rupa biswas's 1982 record "disco jazz" instead right now

but hoos otm, as usual

i'm not looking to discount the important work done by many tireless individuals - some of which seems like the most transformative political work from the left in the US i've seen in *my* lifetime.

well mordy complaining about people complaining about a topic he doesn't like was reminding me of darraghmac complaining about the america-centric view.

i bet you were smirking when you wrote that ;)

the split is a structural feature: it's the tension between those who are primarily motivated by what is right/moral etc. and those who are motivated by what is possible/practical. the conversation space/discourse is not determined by what's possible or practical, so the tension is inevitable; there will always be ppl saying "i agree with your goals but i think yr methods are counterproductive"

I was rolling my eyes. I wouldn't do that two feet from your face though. I'm not that kind of asshole. xpost

shit like this is perfect fodder for social media, and that drives trad media coverage. wailing against having it get attention is putting finger in a dyke.

i think you're talking about a real split but not the one i'm talking about. when h00s says "battles over norms matter, but the fact that people engage in them oughtn't be misunderstood as organized political activity when there are plenty of people actually doing political work while a thousand nobodies flood the phone line of the catholic school's principal" he's talking about two groups of leftists, but one is doing actual political work and a thousand nobodies are flooding the phone line of the principal. if you criticize the latter you're not a centrist - maybe you just find the former more important. xp

If indigenous people are pissed about this, that is all I need to know.

practical political action is obviously superior to transient moral outrage, but it's also brutally difficult and frequently demoralizing work, work that not everybody is cut out for. i tend to assume that people whose political engagement is rooted in transient moral outrage are not cut out for that kind of work. maybe i'm wrong, but even if i am i don't see hectoring as an effective mechanism for transforming people driven by transient moral outrage into people capable of practical political action.

great thats all i need another wacky gimmick to play up to

idealism-realism is a spectrum and you will see arguments all the way along it. i think the argt really is that these acts are more like outbursts that are not part of any coherent political project, but the whole idea of 'real politics' or w/e is part of the ideology of practicality.

just by the by most of the topics being bandied about as being "ignored" (?) by "the left" (?) already have broad popular support. Medicare for All, action on climate change, higher marginal tax rates, all of it polls well among both Democrats and Republicans. Unfortunately, having just whipped the GOPs ass in historic fashion, and raring to get to work, the President purposefully shut down the government so they can't do anything.

well said

eliza, you put the word "ignored" in quotation marks but no one itt said it. what i said was that i was upset that the oxygen in the room was being consumed by this whereas there are these important projects that the left is working on and succeeding at and i worry that fighting these garbage battles will hurt those battles.

practical political action is obviously superior to transient moral outrage, but it's also brutally difficult and frequently demoralizing work

I don't do much/any political organizing any more and I do miss it but I'm so burned out by the community-level service provision to front-line groups that I'm all used up. People are doing all kinds of things at all different levels to make change or even just ameliorate the harms/deliver the benefits of the system we're already working within.

People who have the energy for moral outrage can be directed to use that energy for something practical too--they can be/get organized. How can more of that happen?

I'm pretty sure nobody has ever come around to try to organize me which, like, I know I could figure out my own ways of helping, but I'd love to be organized.

fair enough, Mordy. I don't want to mischaracterize you but I also don't want people thinking the left has not already done the work to sell these ideas.

Never Been Canvassed, Starring Silby (would watch)

I’m an ingenue

Mordy, you consumed A LOT of that oxygen over several threads, and now you're upset about it all of a sudden?

Btw, the reason this backlashed was because at the first sign of trouble half of the media bend over backwards to apologize to the MAGA wearing psychos yelling rape threats at women, because it turned out some black men had said something as well, so of course the white boys were innocent. And yeah, that's a strategic mistake, plain and simple, whoever was trying to make something out of this should have considered whether cowards would stab them in the back. American media does this all the time, so it should have been foreseen.

But nah. You can't win any political battle in the right way until you can win these types of battles. If you want Medicare4All to include funding for women's health you will have to fight every last participant in the March for Life, and how the fuck are you going to do that unless you're willing to fight them?

If you want Medicare4All to include funding for women's health you will have to fight every last participant in the March for Life

not really, those kids can't vote

This tweet is so spot-on today. Not specifically towards anyone on this thread, but the whole debacle in general:

one of my favorite observations from ta-nehisi is this, written in the context of obama but very applicable in the present moment

“Racism is not merely a simplistic hatred. It is, more often, broad sympathy toward some and broader skepticism toward others.”

— b-boy bouiebaisse (@jbouie) January 22, 2019

I'm often annoyed by the 'anti-sjw' or 'anti-liberal' left, because we did that, the 20th century workers movements ended up ignoring or excluding women and people of colour; if there's one thing to learn from the left's failures in the past century, it's the necessity of (social) liberalism as an aim of the left. And I don't encounter it in real life - none of the activists or parties I've been involved in were 'anti-identitarian' - i.e. most of them support moves like all-women candidate lists, or seek to get representation from minority groups etc. It's just the online types who have no sense of the history of the movement that think they can ditch the (so-called) liberalism in favour of pure (naive)class politics.

ever meet any voters

Sure, but their failure to understand the history of the labour movement is uderstandable.

look i know it's unpopular to tell marginalized ppl that you disagree with their strategy - even if they aren't all marginalized people but some and even if other marginalized people agree with you. however, there are positive programs that would have huge impact on marginalized communities that don't include picking fights with alt-righters or waging cultural wars. they do include things like prison reform, or measures to increase household wealth in their communities, or raising the minimum wage, or legislation that could reduce police violence (like mandatory cams). there are lots of policy options for every member of our coalition that are positive worthwhile steps. i'm not saying their pain and suffering is unimportant. i'm saying that this particular way of addressing it is unproductive esp compared to the alternatives.

and theres no risk supporting prison reform or raising the minimum wage might get turned into a culture war football by the right?

i think you're talking about a real split but not the one i'm talking about. when h00s says "battles over norms matter, but the fact that people engage in them oughtn't be misunderstood as organized political activity when there are plenty of people actually doing political work while a thousand nobodies flood the phone line of the catholic school's principal" he's talking about two groups of leftists, but one is doing actual political work and a thousand nobodies are flooding the phone line of the principal. if you criticize the latter you're not a centrist - maybe you just find the former more important. xp

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 22, 2019 4:08 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and some are ... the same people doing both

anyway weve been over this but my feeling is the culture war football isn't deflated by trying to pretend it doesn't exist or by playing whack-a-mole with i.e. racism just bc one racist kid goes viral, but that anti racism (again for example) clearly has to be an explicit part of any platform in which for example the figurehead of the republican party is an unapologetic racist

Wondering if some percentage of the population, same that can't tell a fake smile from a real one, is also incapable of telling a smug smirk from a friendly smile, said percentage also being heavily concentrated among reactionary conservatives

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CJZcVi5BA4

If you want Medicare4All to include funding for women's health you will have to fight every last participant in the March for Life, and how the fuck are you going to do that unless you're willing to fight them?

I also want Medicare4All to be available for this kid

pretty sure most all of us want the benefits of a more socialist society to benefit everybody, even the people we don't like