Public Shaming C/D?

this is a little off topic, but I think this is a great example of the internet's fascination with breaking down every tiny detail of everything - explainer videos, 10 things in star wars that you never noticed and will BLOW YOUR MIND, YouTube dildos and their "response" videos - really poisons the dialogue and our reaction to things

the initial reaction people had was totally correct, the kid's a smug racist little piece of shit, but then the internet has this compulsion to make simple things complex, let's see what happened 10 minutes before 10 minutes after for "context" oh wait they aren't bad the black Israelites are, oh wait they are bad they harassed a girl earlier in the day, oh wait they aren't bad the guy with the drum walked up to them first.... just insane, like people aren't that complex most of em are super simple and 9x out of 10 it's really easy to understand exactly who they are

And as is so commonly the case, the more intently the minutia is pored over, the more easily the big picture and any sense of context is lost.

ie how many of the people engaged in public shaming of teenage choads are willing to expend the same energy in seeking out and combatting the structural problems that turn teens into choads?

Today, my anti-Trump, very liberal history teacher friend, a normally level headed guy who has for whatever reason, lost his mind defending the Covington kids, just shared a Daily Caller article attacking Phillips. Seemingly unaware of the publication's history, founder, and reputation. 2019 is trippy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/01/23/nathan-phillips-man-standoff-with-covington-teens-faces-scrutiny-his-military-past/?utm_term=.851630fab66b

A group representing Nathan Phillips wrongly said he served in Vietnam. Then came the accusations.
There’s no evidence that he’s ever claimed to have served in Vietnam, a representative said
By Dan Lamothe January 23 at 3:11 PM
Nathan Phillips, the U.S. veteran whose standoff with high school students on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial captured viral attention online, has often discussed his military past.

The Native American activist, seen beating a drum Friday as teens from Covington Catholic High School in Kentucky surrounded and mocked him, has referred to himself as a “Vietnam-times” veteran. He described in interviews getting spit on and called a baby killer by a “hippie girl” and told the Detroit Free Press on Saturday that “I’m a Marine Corps veteran, and I know what that mob mentality can be like.”

The sight of him surrounded by a group of teens wearing red baseball hats emblazoned with President Trump’s “Make America great again” campaign slogan and the shifting narratives about the incident afterward have prompted political outcry from conservatives and liberals alike.

Nathan Phillips, center, with other Dakota Access Pipeline protesters in February 2017 near Cannon Ball, N.D. (Mike McCleary/Bismarck Tribune/AP) (Mike Mccleary/AP)
The incident also has led to scrutiny of Phillips’s service record after an organization representing him, the Lakota People’s Law Project, described him as a Vietnam veteran in a news release and numerous media reports identified him as one afterward. Several, including The Washington Post, have since issued corrections.

In reality, Phillips served from June 1972 to May 1976 in the Marine Corps Reserve, a service spokeswoman, Yvonne Carlock, said Wednesday. He did not deploy, and he left the service as a private after disciplinary issues. From October 1972 to February 1973, he was classified as an antitank missileman, a kind of infantryman, Carlock said. He then became a refrigerator technician for the majority of his service.

Daniel Paul Nelson, a leader in the Lakota People’s Law Project, said in an interview that his group made the error and that Phillips never told the group he served in Vietnam. The group, Nelson said, “trusted what we had seen” in previous stories about Phillips, some of which also referred to him erroneously as a Vietnam veteran.

“We were trying to do the advocacy work that we do,” Nelson said.

Phillips, who turns 64 next month, is not old enough to have deployed to Vietnam as a Marine infantryman, prompting accusations that he was lying about his service.

The military will typically provide basic details about a person’s military service within a day, but the situation with Phillips was complicated because he enlisted under another name associated with a family that raised him, Nelson said. He provided Phillips’s full Social Security number to The Post with Phillips’s permission to help clear up the confusion.

On Tuesday night, Donald Shipley, a Navy SEAL veteran who investigates military service records, published a video in which he showed excerpts of Phillips’s service record.

“This is all going into that Native American guy that everybody keeps labeling as a Vietnam vet, and he is not,” Shipley said in the video. “A lot of these news outlets are using that claim of ‘Vietnam vet’ to kind of beef that story up and make it look even worse.”

Shipley, who did not respond to an interview request Wednesday, noted that Phillips enlisted under another name and spent the majority of his time in the military as a refrigerator technician. He questioned how that squares with an April report by Vogue magazine in which Phillips is quoted saying that he was a “recon ranger,” a position that does not exist in the military.

“I have a relative here who said he’d lead the way and scout ahead for us,” Phillips said in the article, which describes a protest at the Standing Rock Sioux reservation in North Dakota. “You know, I’m from Vietnam times. I’m what they call a recon ranger. That was my role. So I thank you for taking that point position for me.”

Nelson said that Phillips’s comments at Standing Rock were taken out of context and that Phillips actually was referring to the work they were doing at the time on the reservation.

In other interviews, Phillips has consistently described being a veteran of “Vietnam times.”

In 2000, he told The Post that he was a patriot who had served as “a Marine Corps infantryman” in the 1970s. He did not claim to have served in Vietnam and did not mention leaving the infantry after a few months to become a refrigerator technician.

In 2015, he described himself in a video interview with MLive as “a Vietnam veteran times” and stated that he served from 1972 to 1976.

Nelson said he did not know Phillips before the uproar but has “incrementally learned about this man’s integrity, and I have not been disappointed.”

With all the scrutiny of Phillips’s military record, he has now been victimized twice, Nelson said.

“It’s definitely a distraction,” he said. “It’s a diversion, in fact. I’d like to make the point that these papers being released demonstrate the most important fact, which is that he was in the military. He did not lie about that, and there are a lot of people who have been in a very irresponsible and vicious manner targeting him without being able to prove that.”

is your liberal history teacher friend a white guy?

Both sides, man. Both sides.

Man randomly stabbed in park may have bounced a check in the '80s. Was he as innocent a bystander as we'd been led to believe?!??!?

Yerac yup

There was a thing recently about why there is that rush to overly defend with all the sexual assault cases that have multiple victims and Kavanaugh, etc. It's easier to identify and feel that that could've been you, you've made that mistake in the past etc etc.

And I recently saw someone in the black community who explicitly did not care about this incident, change his mind. Because if he expects a level of equality and respect of his feelings and viewpoints who is he to say the indigenous community should feel differently or minimize their experience.

also I conflated this thread with the alt right thread w/r/t discussion of tactics, I apologize for that vehemence there rusho - death threats are not cool, "public shaming" seems to be very complex in the social media age and I shld read that book

― sleeve

no worries, i think we're basically in agreement (especially re: using all the tools in the toolbox), when i speak out against rage as a political strategy i'm mostly speaking of my ongoing efforts to reject my white male rage, i don't feel like i have the knowledge or experience to comment on other forms of rage. the thread just started moving so fast that it wasn't really possible, for me at least, to consider what i or other people were saying. another of the many reasons i avoid twitter - also the scale issue ums alludes to, you get 50 million people in a room together and nobody is going to get anything useful out of that.

We allocate more time to writing over each other than we do to reading, that's for sure.

post yeah^^^ and when I talk about rage and anger I am thinking of when I tell other women they should be angrier. Their lack of anger and complacency, such good and civilized behaviour, with how things are directly affects other women who aren't fine. There is the stereotypical picture of the angry feminist "consumed by rage" that circulates, in hope I guess, that women won't want to be seen as not attractive to men, number one priority. I haven't read Rebecca Traister's "Good and Mad" yet. I probably should.

White dude rage is almost always more like loud + demonstrative petulance. Imagine us in a Little Lord Fauntleroy outfit, it's easy if u try.

or when they murder their spouses, partners, strangers...

I'm saying qualitatively. It's not often a righteous expression of anger. I'm not forgetting the thing where the sum of western history is replete with destruction born of that petulance.

when I talk about rage and anger I am thinking of when I tell other women they should be angrier.

i understand -- however
being shamed (see thread title) into demonstrating my anger more publicly so people can see it doesn't seem like a good solution. in fact, it feels divisive (and even a little cruel) considering the effect that anger has on me in particular. i am plenty righteous but expressing it publicly is something i only do irl where people can see and hear my physical self. i don't express anger and rage very much online because it is unproductive and not good for me, like taking a rage pill that gives me a monster hangover.

i am not into public shaming in general tbh

Anger is a human emotion that shouldn’t be repressed. It simply is. Violent, abusive expressions of anger are always wrong (this doesn’t include self defense) but that’s not the same thing as anger itself.

xpost yeah i think we got sidetracked off the original topic. I was probably speaking more generally. And more about real life because I think having an opinion on the internet as a woman, using your real name, is too dangerous.

The issue is never people should be “less angry” about injustice or watch their “tone” or try not to alienate people or whatever—that’s not the issue. People should express themselves.

Public shaming is a separate issue. It’s a tactic that sometimes is necessary—cf. metoo many named in #metoo that weren’t otherwise being held to account—but can sometimes also be ugly and gratuitous and just another case of bullying, completely disconnected from the initial motive of fighting inequality. So it’s situational.

I think I actually sound a lot angrier in writing than I appear in person. It's probably the same amount of anger, but everyone physically handles it/compartmentalizes a different way.

It seems like a lot of ppl come across differently online. Unperson seems to think I am a college freshman.

haha! everyone is envisioning you in your dorm trying to make your first meal. yeah, i mean I would say the same things in person but seeing a person and hearing tone makes all the difference.

My big regret with ilx is that my jokes don’t come axross as well as irl. That or irl people laugh politely.

I mean it's so obvious that it hardly seems worth mentioning and yet also so consistently overlooked that it bears incessant repeating, but so much of the trouble stirred up by contentious online interactions is instantiated by the inability to see other people as like fully-formed people who have a whole existence beyond the typed words you're reading.

Feel like the story of Lindy West confronting her troll may be hella germane wrt this general topic of conversation.

so is public shaming good or bad?

we actually got that sorted ages back

its good when you like it and bad when you dont

i think you mean, 'is it Classic or Dud'