Uyghurs

It doesn't have to be about "us", if the goal is merely to describe what's happening in China. But if the goal is to discuss how to change what's happening in China, then, as dylannn wrote, "we" become relevant.

If I had the choice I'd rather take my chances in a concentration camp, rather than being stripped of citizenship and abandoned homeless/stateless in a dangerous country with a very high homicide rate, with the last communication with the UK foreign office ringing in your ears being: disguise your UK accent cos criminal gangs will target you. Not meaning this as whataboutery - more like don't fucking throw stones in a glasshouse, Western countries.

I think I'm gonna check out guys, much respect (I'm being serious btw), but this is where gets a little too kooky for me.

My by-no-means-comprehensive take on the issue:

* Coverage in Western media is generally about repressed minorities - when you see protests about these from a Chinese POV they look "anti-Chinese" i.e. our concern is about big bad mass of (Han) Chinese steamrollering over other groups, nobody wants to stand up for the regular people of China except the good old CCP, etc. - Not saying this is how it is, just the obvious reading by most Chinese
* Getting on for 40 years of consistent economic development has given the impression of great success, record numbers lifted out of poverty, etc. This is a massive thing and not to be forgotten, for all the downturn recently people still seem to feel like things are going well and they are actively optimistic about the future.
* The new middle/upper class in China are the people you usually meet, they have done very well in the last 40 years and any sort of disturbance to the system that lifted them up is frightening.
* So a certain kind of expat in China will see and absorb all of this and conclude that China is doing ok, but the western media is always on about human rights, therefore western media = biased, myopic and unreliable, all of which is correct in a sense, but
* CCP propoganda actively pushes this POV to disguise their immense failings, push viewpoints like "human rights is a western notion which doesn't apply in the same way in our culture" - they have absorbed so much from the west, but have always resisted giving people rights, especially rights at work, this goes in hand with partnerships with western companies, honestly find it disgusting how these companies have conspired with them to bring over western culture minus the workers rights people fought and died for a century to get.
* All of which is of course tied into the history of colonial oppression and humiliation which Chinese always take into consideration but which the west always seem to forget about.
* So the CCP seem to think they can get away with anything now, this is bad!
* As western commentators we should consider and be educated about all of the above but also not use this as a way to let the CCP off the hook, obviously sanctions isn't viable at the moment, but authoritarians around the world are still growing in power all the time and none of them should be allowed to control the argument, all I would ask is that it be made clear that criticism of them be properly separated from real racism and ignorance about China and Chinese people.

seems like 100 years from now the treatment of china's uighur minority will be rightly seen as horrifying and vile, except by weirdos who will analogize it to being punished by their parents in order to score woke points in some online debate.

I swear this board is getting stupider day by day

Try posting less then. Take that how you will.

Or I could kilfile you as well. That might help.

You have a particular fondness for calling people stupid I've noticed.

You know, the guy who doesn't believe in resorting to personal abuse.

Omg, are you policing my language? What is this, the Cultural Revolution?

What can you hear me from up there on yr high horse?

And this thread has literally devolved into whataboutism. As they always do.

gyac I agreed with that

thx dylannn for the good posts, generally agree with nv and calzino here and glad for the revive

I suspect a lot more people in Canada think the current programs are OK than just "closet psychopaths" fwiw

yes, criticize the prc for locking up possibly a million or more uighurs and kazakhs, attack them for all of their other disgusting actions, definitely pressure more progressive groups to speak out, look up the list of american firms doing business in china, and read about joe biden's son, but you know, end of the day, i think we might make more progress standing up to general warmongering, racism, fascism in our own backyards (including current anti-china hysteria), where i'm sure we are aware of examples of marginalized communities being snuffed out, too.

thanks especially for this

i saw an awful scene in shanghai back in 2006, a group of civilians surrounding a Uyghur man on his knees in a parking lot. he was on his knees and they were all yelling at him and threatening him. apparently they said he had stolen something. somehow that doesn't sound quite as bad as it really was - it was like stepping back into a Jim Crow scene, just chilling. There was a police officer standing about 30 feet away, acting like he didn't notice.

CaAL's posts have been v interesting and relevant

pomenitul is the one that’s otm in this thread

interesting how this wasn’t basically seen as cultural genocide

I certainly view it as such. But once again, I think it's fairer to compare 21st century Canada to China (if we wish to go down that route), pace ogmor's comment about timelines.

CaAL's posts have been v interesting and relevant

Indeed!

And I wasn't aware that there are concentration camps in Western countries dedicated to annihilating minority cultures at the moment.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, May 7, 2019 11:31 AM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Two New Tent Cities Built in Texas to Hold Migrants

13,000 Migrant Children In Detention: America's Horrifying Reality

etc...?

Oh i didn’t see that post.

I was saying that he was otm in saying this didn’t have to do with the west. We should condemn this kind of thing wherever it happens and the “glass houses” thing is a deflection

Point taken, in orbit. But comparing 'The West' to China is a tricky endeavour to begin with. Focusing on the US is more convincing imho, like I said upthread in response to dylannn.

No sorry that wasn't in response to being otm or not! That would be harsh and I borderline think I agree that we don't need to focus on the US to address the thread topic. I was just throwing the immigration human rights crisis in there because it seemed to apply.

I don't want to overlook it or erase it as the concentration camp/genocide that it is.

Is it naive or ethnocentric of me to think that a way to bridge the perspectives here is to consider the Uyghur situation as part of a global rise of anti-Muslim oppression? There aren't Muslim concentration camps in the US or Canada, but there are explicitly anti-Muslim legal actions being taken. I don't want to elide important national/cultural differences, but one of the alarming aspects of this is how neatly it dovetails with far-right sentiment in Europe, India, North America, etc.

pomenitul actually otm a few places. but i wanted to say and a million xposts in between

...comparing a borderline genocidal policy that was implemented recently, complete with actual concentration camps, to historical issues that have been mostly addressed, albeit imperfectly...

can i cover that first? And this is not really connected to the rest of my point but: this “borderline genocidal policy” has been a thing since the early 1950s, when the prc was putting back under their control a region that had broken away with soviet support during the warlord era, and since the bingtuan and mass han migration starting in the mid-1950s around the time of the sino-soviet split when khrushchev and brezhnev were bankrolling separatism, and the anti-rightist campaign and cultural revolution which were carried out in ways in xinjiang (and mongolia and tibet) that were—more than in the rest of the country— about bringing ethnic and religious leaders to heel and rooting out minority culture. 1976 to, say, the mid-1990s were a brief respite in a long history of oppression.

the campaign against uighur communities heated up in the 90s partly due to there being more calls for separatism/autonomy (+ acts of terrorism), which was partly connected to nationalist movements in central asia that emerged following the collapse of the soviet union. by the mid-2000s, most moderate uighur leaders that hadn't been incorporated into the local bureaucracy were in exile or in jail or afraid to say anything, which was part of the reason why extremism could take root but uh...

BUT at this point, it's not so much that the uighurs present any real threat.

part of it is about a nationalistic policy that’s taken hold as economic growth is seen as not the way forward for establishing the legitimacy of the party, and securing han lebensraum is something people can get behind, also helps with crafting the ethnoracial and political identity of the prc. that’s part of it. a chinese nationalist project.

but also a more global neoliberal project. the old quarters of urumqi aren’t being knocked down to destroy uighur culture so much as they are to feed a real estate boom. in beijing, the excuse is fire code and they kick out the migrant workers, but in xinjiang it can be part of the nationalist project, too. the idea that extremists can be identified based on beard length or going to certain mosques, and that they can be converted back from sharia to believing in science and progress and the market. or less abstract, you can point to hikvision, who won a government contract in china to sell facial recognition systems and cameras, backed by western pension and equity funds, shareholders, whatever, and then they sell the technology developed for those government contracts, monitoring re-education camps, back to western state security apparatus, the same cameras scanning faces for terrorists in london and in xi'an and in tulsa and in munich.

so, the clean up your own backyard thing is not to say we can't criticize or it's useless or western powers are doing "the same thing" but xinjiang is not some crazy aberration, some horrible one-off experiment run by red china to destroy an ethnic minority. it's a glimpse into the whole world's not-so-distant future. so yes criticize the prc and get progressive voices to criticize the prc but recognize how western corporate power and the power of the transnational capitalist network and neoliberalism (and warmongering and fascism and right-wing populism) AND WHATEVER ELSE feed into the problem and fighting them would probably do more to improve the lot of people in xinjiang (and a hundred other places) than directly criticizing the chinese communist party (or other wicked foreign powers).

Great post, dylannn. I'm not entirely sold on the 'futorologist' aspects of your analysis, nor even on the extent to which the 'transnational capitalist network' is responsible for the current situation in Xinjiang, but you're certainly right to point out that it's far more interconnected than first meets the eye, and I very much appreciate your historical reminders.

Thanks dylann for excellent post there, agreed with nearly everything and fascinating to know further details of the history of the region, just one thing I want to query though is

recognize how western corporate power and the power of the transnational capitalist network and neoliberalism (and warmongering and fascism and right-wing populism) AND WHATEVER ELSE feed into the problem and fighting them would probably do more to improve the lot of people in xinjiang (and a hundred other places) than directly criticizing the chinese communist party (or other wicked foreign powers).

I would really group the CCP in with the transnational capitalist network, neoliberalism, warmongering, fascism and right-wing populism

that was my whole point!

with all that being said, i think if you're sitting here reading this and don't like what's happening in xinjiang, and you're not like me waiting for the collapse of global capitalism to solve everything, do your best to get a deeper understanding, then use your knowledge to pressure reasonable, progressive voices to join in that criticism.

xp it was? ok, so maybe misreading a bit there, but do you mean that it's less effective to oppose the CCP as a whole than the others? because I often see "...but you have to respect the achievements of the communist party" when western liberals are discussing anything to do with China, and feel that complacency is a huge part of the problem.

after a decade in China I'm now back in the UK for good, so afraid my understanding is unlikely to improve much at this point

My own soothsaying daimon tells me that global capitalism will collapse sooner rather than later and that it will create a brand new set of unsolvable problems, some of which will resemble those of the pre-capitalist era. This is equally unprovable, of course.

2xp

i) Doubt Capital would just collapse, and that it would solve anything, and ii) yes it will be a lot of work to begin to undo the damage it has bought on all of us.

CaAL i'm western but not a liberal and i do think you have to respect the historical achievements of the chinese communist party but that shouldn't mean the party cannot be criticized (hopes and prayers to all the disappeared marxist reading group members and labor activists that spent may day locked up).

i just meant the impulses driving the party / prc elites + driving western regimes / elites are often interconnected or one and the same. and addressing i'm sure 99% westerners here, their energies could better be put into reigning in those impulses in their own countries rather than directly attacking the prc, which is good and noble (but with a background of anti-china hysteria probably hurting more than it is helping, unless that criticism is coming from reasonable and progressive voices, or perhaps directed at western companies and individuals doing business in xinjiang?)

Looking again at this thread.

As a side note, there's something oddly exceptionalist and neo-colonial about whataboutism: 'Oh so you think those guys have committed grave ethical transgressions? Look at us!'

This is just bizarre. We can't use any kind of economic sanctions (which are terrible anyway) because so much of the world economy everyone has signed up to depends on that region. That leaves anywhere between shaming to appeal to the Chinese government - where you'd need a high moral ground that almost all countries in the West simply don't have. And it isn't an act of erasure on the Uyghurs to point out the atrocities we commit to our own minorities and how we brutalise the poor, AND how in our foreign policy we fully collaborate with the Saudis, Israel and India (a far from exhaustive list), and many countries who murder and repress their own. Saying we aren't doing worse as these people over there isn't putting on enough of an examination of what we are doing to ourselves.

Funnily enough tearing surveillance contracts that Dylann mentions is the one thing that could make a material difference. But you know, its "futurology".

Eh, suit yourself. I do think many contemporary Western countries (including, yes, Canada, for all its numerous faults and flaws) have enough of a relative moral high ground to say something – once again, there are degrees of ethical imperfection to consider (I'm even tempted to say, contra ogmor, that certain differences of degree are so great as to be indistinguishable from differences in kind). And I'd rather ponder dylannn's historical analysis: it's way more interesting to me than the usual narcissistic self-flagellation, which doesn't get us anywhere either (unless you're American, and even then, only up to a point).

As for those surveillance contracts, that would indeed be a massive step up, no question about it – my futurology dig was in reference to the notion that this is what awaits the whole world. I mean… maybe? I have no idea tbh – no one does at this stage.

this is one possible reaction. john oliver, please save the uighurs.

https://imgur.com/6PDy5ZK.jpg

Its not "self-flagellation" to say what an easy response and utterly ineffective response it would be to simply shame the country. Much before this we have had plenty of repression of dissidents but trade has flowed on and on with little concern.

The harder bit to think about is changing the economic model underpinning all of this. Its similar to the Saudis - we could say harsh words and cancel defence contracts but that is only the beginning of what needs to be done.

Progressive disarmament on an international scale would have be on the menu as well, which seems… unlikely to occur any time soon.

my futurology dig was in reference to the notion that this is what awaits the whole world.

I wasn't reading some kind of dystopian future. I was reading a reality of surveillance that you are surely aware of, companies that manufacture and distribute as if its like any other defence system. Its much more banal. And here. It doesn't mean every dissident will be caught and nothing can be done about it.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp

what's happening with china and the Uighur leaves me feeling helpless. what can be done? someone close to me is a scholar in the field, and as far back as 2006 he was telling me about the long terrible history. everyone knows about this problem, the facts aren't disputed. but what is the solution? what is even a partial solution?

what can be done?

the sad fact is that the people in a position to do anything directly to change this brutality are the ones who are most culpable for it happening to begin with. assuming you and I are similarly situated, living thousands of miles away, with no power, no leverage to influence those perpetrators, what we can do is very limited by the distance between our actions and the desired result. that's reality.

the best we can do is to speak up to those who represent us in government and to anyone else who may care enough to listen, and make them understand the facts. even then, the influence those representatives can exert is going to be highly indirect and only marginally effective. the Chinese government is very well insulated from such outside influences.

Well, quick check first off - not everybody knows about it. Most people I deal with in everyday life probably just have no idea at all who the "Uyghurs" are. Second off, a lot of people do know about it and are choosing to ignore what they know, to feign ignorance. We can make that difficult for them simply by talking about it, by not ignoring or excusing what is going on. Solutions to problems such as these tend to appear when enough people stop ignoring and excusing the problems.

that seems to put an unhealthy level of responsibility on the people within yr range for the actions of a government half a world away

the hong kong protests have garnered the world's attention. why not this?

"the world's attention" is shorthand for something so complicated that I can't unravel it into any kind of causal narrative. but I know it helps to have dramatic video.

i think it means that tom hanks will narrate a documentary about it in 25 years

No one is saying that China isn't suppressing dissent or that something isn't going on Xinjiang (allday denies it all but I was agreeing about his point on Novara inviting someone from Spiked on their show).

Distinguishing the two is key to everything here, blurring the distinction between the two is bad whoever is doing it, and tbh I do not understand why everyone doesn't just get this.

on the left a lot of this is the legacies of leninism & nationalism- the party/state is the people, useful thinking for people who are or aspire to be part of the former (most prominent leftists, way beyond obvious tankies). then reduction by the same people of all world events to a mirror image of the US neocon view of good guy/bad guy states, reinforced by various state lines and general war on terror racism. the thing about China not being imperialist is a tell, it only makes sense if you already accept a number of bullshit leninist and/or nationalist premises

this is the kind of shit that has had many prominent leftists helping the far right smear all dissident Syrians (& Iranians & Afghans & others) as US-backed Islamist terrorists, same thinking now applied to Xinjiang. it’s cost western leftists way more good will internationally than they seem to realise yet

obviously the right wingers using this as part of their yellow peril narrative to incite violence against asians don’t actually give a shit about any of it

xp it’s fake, it’s justified, it’s bad but exaggerated, use any and all as convenient, standard genocide denial. actually pretty widespread

Never knew truth telling is so easy, on the internet.

?

If you want the, uh, good guys to win, you gotta gloss over certain, uh, details. Otherwise you lose sight of the, uh, bigger picture.

Also wrt the footage posted by LBI above there is something desperate about the framing (and I've seen a couple of other tweets on my TL) of this as a new holocaust. I can believe there is something going on in China, but I can also see the voices pushing on about exactly what as to be questioned about how they get their info and their motivations.

An astonishingly dim take, even for you.

I know you wouldn't like it

Uighur doctor tells ITV News of disturbing testimonies of 'forced abortions and removal of wombs' | By @emmamurphyitv https://t.co/n135XfZWI2

— ITV News (@itvnews) September 2, 2020

This is horrifying.

I'd advise not clicking on that if you're likely to be distressed by the subject matter because there's some very grim stuff in there.

I don't know what to say other than fuck Xi and fuck every country that has abetted this, whether directly or indirectly. Just horrible.

Yeah :(

jfc.