HBO's adaptation of Game of Thrones - Thread 2. There are a lot of nerds.

Yeah, that is a little embarrassing, because Wampler is already an awesome name for a company, and they put out lots of good stuff. Why go novelty?

i'm struggling to articulate something about this show: it is ironic that it collapsed under its own weight, disappointing and empty, unable to think its way out of the various holes it was in -- while the lines with the most life and afterlife in them are all knowing condescension: "oh my sweet summer child," "you know nothing, Jon Snow," "I drink and I know things."

(for ref my basic read is that the last season or two were noticeably worse than the earlier seasons but not THAT much worse)

it was *always* empty. Because it was never about anything. It has no thematic core beyond being a dynastic power struggle, something which is not, in and of itself, ever inherently interesting. It never had anything meaningful to say about the nature of politics, family, gender, power, morality, spirituality, or any number of other common major themes.

The only thing it had to say was that in the end we all die. But then it started bringing people back to life and stuff, so even that was unclear.

like if you had to tell me what this show was about in any kind of concise way - without a reference to any specific plot points or characters - I think you'd have a hard time. For ex. you can argue that Citizen Kane is about the loss of innocence, or the Sopranos is about the nature of evil (or family), the Wire is about power structures, etc.

I'm sure some of you will try :)

the major theme was "There's nothing more powerful in the world than a good story."

what this show was about in any kind of concise way

i think you could fairly say that it was about dynastic power struggles (which are inherently interesting)

lol

i think i'd rate the seasons like this

S1: 10
S2: 10
S3: 10
S4: 9
S5: 8
S6: 7
S7: 5
S8: 2

i think dynastic stuff is interesting because its so alien to modernity. the show wasn't *enough* about that! did anyone have any kids in the whole run?

i feel like if the wars of the roses or 30 yrs war was really the driving inspiration here, people would have been herding Jon & The Blonde into marriage like 5 years ago

i think dynastic stuff is interesting because its so alien to modernity.

oh please. we're ruled by political and economic dynasties.

how many kids did Sam and Gilly have?

To me the good part, the first three books, first four seasons, are about how competitions can spiral out of control so that everyone loses.

the only thing separating this show from garbage telenovelas was the production values/budgets. otherwise this particular dynastic power struggle could have been set in any era in any part of the globe - ancient Greece, medieval Japan, Putinized gangster Russia, a Latin American banana republic, etc. - and all you'd have to tailor to the locality would be the fantastical elements. But it still wouldn't have anything interesting to say about of those places or anything at all really. King Lear it is not.

xp

i could argue that the theme or lesson of the first four seasons is "stories are powerful, but they are not literally true." the viewers and the characters believe that something is going to happen a certain way because it happened that way in the stories they loved as children--ned is a just and honorable man, so he would be a good ruler; oberyn deserves revenge, so he'll get it; sansa's gonna marry a prince and live happily ever after--but, uh, that's not how it happens.

the show kinda lost the thematic plot in the latter half of the series

It was derivative thematically because the books are, it was a great spectacle for the most part with plenty of great characters/performances, story twists and some great memorable passages of dialogue in the earlier seasons covering all those aspects of humanity (in a medieval fantasy world). There was lots of fun to be had discussing it as the ILX thread(s) show and jokes about it on Twitter etc. That's entertainment.

the books/show is a direct response to the epic fantasy genre, mainly interested in subverting tropes--maybe less interested in making a point than telling an epic, complicated story and defying expectations

that's not a theme, it's a writing strategy

The final two seasons were 7/10 and 6/10 respectively for me but I'm keen on dragons, generous.

the only thing separating this show from garbage telenovelas was the production values/budgets. otherwise this particular dynastic power struggle could have been set in any era in any part of the globe - ancient Greece, medieval Japan, Putinized gangster Russia, a Latin American banana republic, etc. - and all you'd have to tailor to the locality would be the fantastical elements. But it still wouldn't have anything interesting to say about of those places or anything at all really. King Lear it is not.

xp

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, June 25, 2019 1:58 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark

you seem to have not watched many telenovelas.

first four seasons were very strong tv, reminiscent of good british period dramas like i, claudius or something

first three seasons were an easy 9/10, maybe 10/10. Fourth season a solid 8/10. the last couple seasons were good spectacle, albeit rushed. the weak stuff was largely in 5&6 iirc.

philip pullman set out to 'write against' CS lewis, and that turned out pretty well

Moorcock's Elric is essentially an inversion of Conan, he still managed to stick some ideas in there (granted there the ideas he stuck in p much every book - conflict between order/chaos, and the costs of choosing one over the other but still)

idk how the books are gonna end, but the whole thing with the white walkers seemed to suggest a theme of "people will struggle to put the interests of their nation or planet over their own ambition and self-interest." the way that whole plotline ended in the show casts a bit of doubt on that idea.

I admit the first few seasons were pretty well executed. They stuck to the books, and the books seemed to be very much about de-romanticizing the fantastical (there's magic and god stuff, but no one really understands or believes in it and it's messy and ugly and doesn't always work) and subverting hero-quest tropes (villains win, etc.). Still silly, but at least it seemed to stick to its guns. I can't remember when I stopped watching, but it was getting simultaneously too soapy and too bogged down in more traditional wheel-spinning TV tropes. Plus killed off many of the more interesting stories/characters. Plus started selectively bringing people back from the dead. Plus reveled in gratuitous sex and sadistic violence, which is to say, even when there *was* a story to tell, the salacious stuff was a big distraction. Plus relied to much on mythology as a mostly unexplored crutch. And after a while, once I stopped watching, I mostly heard the show described in terms of its scale and spectacle, which, again, is a pretty banal accomplishment, imo. Like people who drive six-figure cars. OK, so you spent all that money on a car, bfd.

but isn't it amazing, the amount of money they spent

And yet ... it often still seemed cheap!

was gonna say, they coulda spent more!

This is a ridiculous argument. As much as they have budget they only have so much time to produce what they do.

I couldn't really give a shit how much they spent other than through appreciating the quality where they did demonstrate that which was most of the time.

Josh and Shakey definitely holding up their end up on this argument by continuing to post

It's very important that we unwrap this enigma that is Game of Thrones.

xpost If we can be in agreement about anything, it's that by the end the show runners and probably much of the cast really didn't give a shit, either.

They've got a Death Star to rebuild dammit

It's not a death star! It's... bigger than the other death star.

A deather star.

A Game of Death Stars

i think i'd rate the seasons like this

S1: 10
S2: 10
S3: 10
S4: 9
S5: 8
S6: 7
S7: 5
S8: 2

― i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone),

S1: 10
S2: 9
S3: 10
S4: 9
S5: 7
S6: 5
S7: 4
S8: 6

I enjoyed 7/8 more than 5/6 as wholesale entertainment, as long as I ignored my extremely let-down expectations as to how the plot would dénoue

curiously i thought as the show expanded its visual scope to epic levels it also felt more sparsely populated, like what was implied offscreen in the first several seasons (the show at the time being confined to smaller locations and discussing events that occurred offscreen more) gave the sense of a much larger world that didn't end outside the frame (and which seemed well-populated inside the frame, too).

it was kind of hilarious that there's this whole potential civilian revolt substory going on in King's Landing, but you never really meet any of the people who live in the city. they're all just anonymous angry hateful spitting doofuses. reminds me of literally every single peasant in monty python and the holy grail

the only commoner you sort of meet is gendry from flea bottom, and then he turns out to have maybe the best claim to the throne in the entire show

ser davos also from fleabottom, also karl tanner, leader of the mutineers at craster's keep

yeah, i mean you get to meet a few, but except for tanner they all end up being exceptional people. (tanner is exceptionally evil, i guess)

this show is howard zinn's worst nightmare, a history told almost exclusively from the perspective of the elites

There was that kid from Malcolm In The Middle’s subplot on the penultimate episode

and Hot Pie

Night Watch dudes were mostly commoners

still annoyed that apparently everyone in Westeros thought "Bran the Broken" was a name he'd be cool with.

this show is howard zinn's worst nightmare, a history told almost exclusively from the perspective of the elites

― i will never make a typo ever again (Karl Malone), Wednesday, June 26, 2019 1:55 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think that's part of the point--the capricious whims of these elites literally crushes the lives of thousands. the fourth and fifth book takes a bit of time to appreciate the plight of the commonfolk, but alas, the show didn't have time for that.

bran the "broken/head over heels/broken"