Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

http://img.fireden.net/co/image/1510/64/1510648240983.jpg

it's kinda funny after all the mammoth effort of the MCU, Spider-Man into the Spider-Verse ended up being the best comic movie

tbh I always find this baffling, how someone can find a subject so engaging in one medium, but beneath contempt (or not worth doing the most cursory investigation necessary) in another medium

lol

lol x 2

LOL how many of these shitty MCU movies do I have to sit thru before I’m allowed to call them shitty? One more? Two? Ten?

I think at this point the amount of time you've spent reiterating the shittiness of the Marvel movies has safely exceeded the amount of time you've spent watching shitty Marvel movies.

(Which, tbf, is precisely where I'm at wrt shitty DC movies, so you're in good company.)

I was born in 1974 and comic books never clicked for me. I never really found the art compelling, didn't have a regular place to buy them in my small town, and if I encountered them I was jumping into a story that might have been going on since the 1940s and I might never see the next issue so what was the point?

I watched Super Friends and Spiderman and His Amazing Friends on Saturday mornings, saw Supermans 1-3 in the theater, and was 15 when Batman came out and thought it looked lame so never saw any of those. I saw a few random Raimi and Nolan and MCU films in the way that you go to a big summer blockbuster (but I had no idea why Ghostface called himself Tony Stark until I saw the first Iron Man). I've got an almost 5 year old now and this such a dominant force in pop culture that it's hard to avoid. For some reason I watched Infinity War on a plane ride at a particular place in my life where I dug it enough to watch most of the ones I've missed on dvd from the library over the last 9 months in time to see Endgame in the theater. Me and the kid absolutely loved Spiderverse and have watched it or parts of it several times now since it's been on Netflix.

My public library has a huge section of graphic novels and trade paperbacks (a phrase I learned only recently) and I want to check them out but again, how does one find an entry point? I've read Civil War and The Killing Joke and Watchmen, but there are so many others - just shelves and shelves of them - that it's hard to focus. And if am interested in some character and start reading wikipedia suddenly I'm looking at a 10,000 word entry on Doc Ock and the versions of him that exist in like twenty different versions and story lines or the dozens of people who have hosted the Venom symbiote. It's overwhelming, but picking something at random feels so haphazard.

Yeah, it's unwieldy and intimidating even for the initiated (I read pretty much all the Marvel stuff but I'm like 1.5 years behind at the moment, during which time hundreds of issues have been published). A sense of what you like the most and what you're looking for would help with tailor-made recommendations.

Good post, joygoat. I second Old Lunch — are there particular characters/vibes you’re interested in?

The last few years of this thread has some great recs (including from Yours Truly!), if you have the patience to scroll thru it: Marvel Comics blabbery

Excelsior!

I've read Civil War and The Killing Joke and Watchmen, but there are so many others - just shelves and shelves of them - that it's hard to focus.

it's worth noting that you've read three things that are, more or less, the product of a single authorial voice. If you want to read more stuff that is set in the Marvel universe, that also reads as the product of a person (or collaborative team) executing an idea, the pickings are going to be slim. If you just want to read superhero comics that read like that (as your choices so far indicate), the options are wider.

If you're interested in reading comics generally, and want them to be as coherently a single story executed by good storytellers (like Killing Joke and Watchmen), there are hundreds of thousands of recommendations we can make, depending on styles or genres you like in other media.

Still waiting for the Cinematic Jodoverse tbf

I read Watchmen years ago when the movie hype was building, Killing Joke because I recognized the cover and knew it was a self-contained origin story, and Civil War because it seemed like as good an intro as any because I had a film as a reference.

Basically in terms of structure, I'm looking for something that feels somewhat discrete, like a standalone graphic novel or some story arc that's collected or demarcated in some way, preferably within the Marvel universe because I find them more interesting than DC ones who feel a lot more one dimensional. Focus on a particular villain or that villain's origin or motivation is good, like I find it interesting when someone finds a way give a character who seems like a gimmick from 1967 a sense of gravitas.

Characters I'm interested in: I loved Spiderverse so any Miles/Stacy/modern-day Peter Parker/ future whatever Spiderman. I feel like I should read Frank Miller's Dark Knight but that's perpetually checked out. Someone was talking to my son about doc ock and spiderman swapping bodies (Superior Spiderman, I believe?), and when he told a waitress how much he loves Venom (just for being so scary looking) she told him about Carnage which I know nothing about. I've also heard about Doctor Doom for my entire life but know nothing about his origin or powers etc.

Thanks for any suggestions, I'll probably lurk on the marvel thread as well.

Gwen Stacy that is.

Jonathan Hickman's Avengers run leading up to Secret Wars a couple of years ago was good, he has a pretty strong voice as a comics writer. It's got a ton of characters, though, all the trad Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom.

https://www.comicbookherald.com/jonathan-hickman-marvel-universe-reading-order-2008-to-2016/

the run that starts w/ V here

I've never read it but Grant Morrison's Batman Incorporated but it's quite popular and I don't think you need to read other Batman books to get any of it.

good self-contained DC GNs - Red Son (Soviet Superman), All-Star Superman

Are you looking for things that your kid can read too, or mainly just yourself?

I've also heard about Doctor Doom for my entire life but know nothing about his origin or powers etc

These can be different every few years depending on who's writing or which editor's in charge or whatnot - part of why DC or Marvel own-brand superhero comics are terrible potentially challenging for casual readers.

The initial few years of Spider-Man, written and drawn by Steve Ditko with dialogue added by Stan Lee, would probably be a really good grounding tbh, but the dialogue is very dated.

(and was a 40-year-old's made-up idea of how hip teens talked at the time, and often hasn't actually read the story closely so contradicts what's meant to be going on, or forgets what he wrote previously etc.)

The closest thing to Spider-Verse that's accessible to a new reader (although just with a white male Spider-Man) might be collections of the Spider-Man's Tangled Web series from the early '00s: these were 1, 2 or 3 issue self-contained stories where individual cartoonists or teams were given a little more free reign to bring their style to Spidey. So you'd get a little of the flavour of the many illustrative and tonal styles that Spider-Verse rolled together so well.

I wouldn't give a pre-teen Venom comics at all btw - not only are they designed to be SCARIiIiIIeeEEr than the stuff the kids have read for years already, they're very lamely gross and violent in a way that's aimed at 14-15 year olds who want to feel transgressive but without actually taking in new ideas.

Carnage is Venom, but for 16 year olds who've burnt out on the transgressiveness of Venom.

Tom King's VISION 12-issue miniseries is wonderful. I have no interest in the character or any real knowledge of his history, but this was clever and sad and great.

The initial run of Kamala Khan as Ms. Marvel is fantastic and would be good if your kid wants to read too.
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Ms._Marvel_Vol_3

They've recently started issuing this new line of collections (roughly twelve issues for $12, slightly smaller than standard comic size but not quite digest size, presumably optimized for YA bookstore shelves) of all-age titles that are legitimately enjoyable for all ages. They kicked it off with Ms. Marvel, Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur, Unstoppable Wasp, and Spidey, with Squirrel Girl and Miles Morales collections on the way, I believe. I haven't read Spidey (which is basically just a redo of Peter Parker's early adventures from what I understand) but all of the others are delightful and fun and relatively self-contained. Spider-Gwen is also a safe bet inasmuch as she was just created for the comics Spider-Verse event a few years back and her solo title mostly takes place on an alternate earth and thusly requires no foreknowledge of anything.

The Dennis Hopeless run on Spider-Woman was slightly less self-contained but very good (particularly Shifting Gears Vol. 1 if you're looking for a specific recommendation). Chip Zdarsky seems to be taking off (his Howard the Duck was quite nice).

Immortal Hulk is getting massive raves but I haven't caught up to that point yet so I can only pass along the message at the moment.

Despite sic's slander, Donny Cates's Venom has also been getting very solid reviews (haven't read), and Gerry Conway's recent run on Carnage was the first interesting take I've read on the character.

I could go on but I don't want to shit up the Marvel movies thread with off-topic discussion of Marvel comics.

I second the Spider-Woman rec — but I suggest you start further back, with New Duds. It’s fantastic.

i can recommend about a dozen currently running marvel books but the first one that comes to mind is Immortal Hulk

Milo's recommendation of Hickman's Avengers is quite an undertaking but heartily seconded. Hickman's FF run is also great and probably an easier sell to a neophyte. The first Complete Collection volume was just released a few months back with the second due shortly.

Other recent-ish ones I highly recommend:

She-Hulk by Soule & Pulido

Captain Marvel by Deconnick & Lopez

Gwenpool

Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye series — particularly the L.A. Woman volume, focusing on Kate Bishop

All-New Wolverine, by Tom Taylor & David Lopez

The Unworthy Thor — or really any of Jason Aaron’s Thor stuff, but this in particular

Karnack: The Flaw in all Things, by Warren Ellis

Many of these are light, fairly humorous, and female-focused, which is the mode I prefer. (The exceptions are All-New Wolverine, which is heavy action; Thor, which is Thor; and Karnack, which is totally brooding/bro-y, but a terrific self-contained book, I tore through it in one sitting.)

Also — you do indeed need to eventually read The Dark Knight Returns (though this feels like recommending you watch The Godfather or something).

man, I so wanted to love Karnak...

Ack, I misspelled his name — I can imagine the look the dude would give me, lol

Grant Morrison's Batman Incorporated but it's quite popular and I don't think you need to read other Batman books to get any of it.

Batman Incorporated is pretty much the SpiderVerse of Batman, actually - this might work well for joygoat.

(Of course, because it's corporate superhero comics, some of the characters stopped existing between pages because the entire DC universe got rebooted, and if yr library has it, it might be as Batman Incorporated Volume 1 (published 2011), followed by Batman Incorporated Volume 1 (published 2013), followed by Batman Incorporated Volume 2 (published 2014).)

Focus on a particular villain or that villain's origin or motivation is good, like I find it interesting when someone finds a way give a character who seems like a gimmick from 1967 a sense of gravitas.

oooh, here's a good one: Garth Ennis' run on the "Marvel Max" version of The Punisher.


(Which might be in your library as ten paperbacks, or as 5 hardcovers with larger pages, or as three regular hardcovers that are so thick that the pages don't open. Also, the regular Marvel Punisher series by Garth Ennis is something else that doesn't fit with these. Also, there are some pretty racist cod-blaxploitation, or set-in-the-future, or set-in-the-past Max miniseries by Ennis that were only collected in separate paperbacks afaik.)

I find it interesting when someone finds a way give a character who seems like a gimmick from 1967 a sense of gravitas.

They're all DC but...

Animal Man and Doom Patrol by Grant Morrison
Swamp Thing by Alan Moore

...are pretty much the gold standard for that kind of thing

Frank Millar's Daredevil, #168-191 is genuinely still good, for all that the writer has turned into a mad old coot in his later years - like Immortal Hulk, it's definitely not 5-year-old suitable.

(and also qualifies under the same criteria! xp)

Marvel universe, with a sense of colour and fun and silliness that gels with the Spider-Verse movie, and requiring no continuity knowledge: Peter Milligan and Mike Allred's run on X-Force, followed by X-Statix and several spinoffs.

(X-Force collected in three paperbacks or one hardcover that turned into a $150 ebay item a few months after it came out in 2004; X-Statix, but not the spin-offs, was collected in a huge hardcover at some point. The main series and one of the spin-offs were collected in five paperbacks.)


good self-contained DC GNs - Red Son (Soviet Superman), All-Star Superman

agree, this one should work for you.


She-Hulk by Soule & Pulido

can't speak to this, but the first year-long run of She-Hulk by Dan Slott, with Juan Bobillo & others on art, is a legal sitcom with superhero fights and space gods: two paperbacks, Single Green Female and Superhuman Law. (There was a longer second run that wasn't as good, nor as self-contained.)

Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye series — particularly the L.A. Woman volume, focusing on Kate Bishop

yeah, from what I've read this is like the tone of the good bits of the decent Marvel movies, except better

which reminds me - Keith Giffen, JM DeMatteis and Kevin Maguire's Defenders miniseries is like a goofy, sillier version of Thor: Ragnarok or the first Guardians Of The Galaxy movie. Collected in one paperback.

Animal Man and Doom Patrol by Grant Morrison
Swamp Thing by Alan Moore

...are pretty much the gold standard for that kind of thing

True.

They're all somewhat deconstructive (each in different ways) of the tropes and principles of superhero comics, too, not just the characters, if that's a point either in favour or against.)

(Though nb that nearly every reprint of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing ever has dropped out significant captions and artwork.) (Plus as far as I know, there's never been a reprint of the Frank Miller Daredevil which Andrew recommends that doesn't have hideous garish "re"colouring, though this also applies to nearly any current editions of 1940s-1990s Marvel.)

All Star Superman is a great rec too

Has a similar sense of fun to Spider-Verse, beautiful art, and is self-contained and doesn't require any knowledge of continuity

and I'd say Batman: Year One over Dark Knight Returns

I would not read X-Force/X-Statix to a five-year-old if that is part of the selection criteria.

FYI, if you're willing to wait a bit, they're recollecting all of Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix run starting early next year. It's worth the wait.

None of these suggestions, bar the all-ages omnibi, are suitable for five-year-olds.

Except Garth Ennis’ Punisher, where he cuts thumbs off of Russian heroin smugglers who are human-trafficking prostitutes in shipping crates and whatnot.

One last pipe bomb thrown at the thread's remit before I suggest moving the conversation elsewhere, but if you're looking for a (non-Marvel) comic five-year-olds will enjoy, you could do much worse than Axe Cop (a comic written by a five-year-old and which is, thusly, amazing).

Perhaps going forward, we can use this thraed: Recommend me some essential graphic novels to acquire!

Also linked from there and with more recent recommendations: recommend me some essential graphic novels to acquire

Ah, I knew there was a fresher thread. I've posted some stuff in Andrew's link.

sic — does this volume contain all the good Dan Slott material you mentioned?

Ah, NM, I guess that’s the first one you linked to

Slott's entire run is encompassed by the two complete collections.