This is a thread for ILXors ON THE WAGON (and for the Wagon Curious)

I have tried alcohol on a dozen or so occasions, never much cared for it, at most I got annoyed at how loud and incoherent I felt like I was getting (on 1/3 or so of a beer). So practically speaking I don’t drink, don’t have an interest in it, and never hear anyone talk about drinking in a way that makes me feel like I’m missing out.

This is not the thread for you then

See I read quincie’s op and it seemed like it was, is this a recovery thread or about not drinking alcohol

cmon dude, “on the wagon” is unambiguous

hi, i am a not particularly functional serial binge drinker of 30+ years standing and no amount of attempted moderation or self-control doesn't lead me swiftly back to wildly self-destructive binging, and i know really i must accept i have to stop, proper stop, forever and that is terrifying because the pub goer is about all i feel like i have left of who i am

Noodle Vague's predicament is kind of mine, too. I had a really quite destructive period in my mid-late 30s (mid-40s now) which was part of a larger crisis of purpose. I've since changed career - a move that meant I essentially couldn't drink as much and function at the level at which I need to be - and my relationship to booze has been much healthier. I'm getting to grips with the job now though and, well, I can see old habits creeping back in. And I get long(er) holidays, where I tend to make up for things and this summer in particular, was fairly boozy. Short version: my mental health and relationships suffered.

All of which has meant me taking the last 10 days off and I feel immeasurably better.

I have cut back significantly after fairly heavy drinking for the best part of two decades. It took nearly getting sacked from two consecutive jobs and real and active concern from my partner before I got help. Unfortunately I've kind of replaced that urge with a fondness for prescription painkillers that I need to shake. There's always something but I'm marginally more in control now and optimistic, sometimes

I'll be a boringly functional but killing myself slowly alcoholic till the death I think. My addiction doesn't cause any crisis's so I can happily plod on with it till the death. Or least until my ailing health becomes a crisis, but that is what it take to persuade me to even consider stopping.

This is totally a thread for silby per the original thread intent; people abstain from alcohol for numerous reasons.

I use the term "on the wagon" frequently and casually to mean I am currently not drinking. More because it's a signal to friends that I don't want them cajoling me to go to a bar or to offer me drinks when we hang out. I often have long periods of not drinking (I likely won't be drinking for the rest of the year) because I find it difficult to eat and exercise to the standards I want to be at while drinking even a little.

Booze does have a significant knock-on effect on a whole bunch of things - diet, exercise, sleep, wallet, mental health (to varying, difficult-to-gauge levels). I did 100 days at the start of last year and initially felt great for it - I read more, was generally more 'level', exercised more etc - but I missed the culture around drinking (seeking out new beers) and the way it gave shape to my weeks. I also missed something more nebulous along the lines of the camaraderie of drinking together with people.

I stopped drinking entirely between December 2018 and June 2019 aside from maybe 3 beers over the course of those 7 months, mostly because my drinking habits were manageable but constant; my kids were constantly asking me if every drink I had was a beer and it concerned me that that had become their default impression of me. As a side effect, I lost 15 lbs of weight I'd been whining about but never motivated myself to get rid of.

I'm back to drinking much more moderately now and am very conscious of what I'm doing when watching tv or playing videogames.

Good point about kids. Mine are of an age where they need to see me being responsible not acting like a dick.

I also want to acknowledge calzino's post, but I don't know what to say. Will a nod across the bar suffice in any way at all?

for several years now i've hardly drunk at all, it seems i went from being a social drinker during grad school - occasionally to excess - to having the rare drink with friends. for part of that time i have been a lot more skint, but also once i was drinking alone - which i always rather liked - and the next morning i looked like shit, and figured i was getting too old to be drinking much. i think i probably last imbibed a year or so ago? and similarly in the year before that, etc. this is surely a byproduct of my dead social life. recently i thought i might pick up a little wine or something to have with dinner (was never much for wine), inject a new variable into my routine.

this is the same thing i posted in the other thread

I don’t have a reading rec but this summer I didn’t drink for 2 weeks bc of a health issue, which I realized was the first time I ever attempted complete teetotaling for that long. During that time, I played 2 shows, my dog died suddenly, and I had to go on an overnight retreat w my coworkers — all situations in which I’d have gladly been drinking — and it was definitely hard! I drank inconceivable amounts of flavored seltzer and noticed that I did indeed feel different after about 10 days. Much less depressed, for starters, in spite of the dire circumstances.

Since those two weeks, I’ve been thinking that maybe alcohol just isn’t very good for me. Not terrible, but def not good. Not-drinking is way more appealing than it used to be.

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, August 26, 2019 6:50 PM (two weeks ago)

I think that generally, if you are feeling bad AND drinking, stopping drinking is a very good start to feeling better (mentally, physically, etc) If it's difficult, that teaches you something too.

I concur. I didn’t even realize I met DSM criteria for generalized anxiety disorder (despite being in a profession in which I routinely screened others for such) until I went into treatment for SUD. 4+ months later and I no longer meet criteria nor feel anxious much at all! It’s been like a silver fucking bullet. Of course it has been a giant pain in the brain to get to this point, but dear god so worth it.

I find it near impossible to go completely sober so my version of On The Wagon means no drinking at home unless friends are over. This usually results in me going out to bars more regularly but honestly that's a net plus because I'm otherwise too much of a shut-in. I wish I could adhere to this policy year-round but usually can only do a few weeks at a time, 2 or 3 times a year. I definitely notice and enjoy the mental and physical health improvements when I'm not going through a 6-pack plus a few whiskeys every night.

four weeks

Nice! Is it easier now than at week 2?

not really, maybe? no physical craving, just "fuck I really wish I could have a beer right now" about 2-3x a day

well done!

drinking a lot of Topo Chico (thanks brimstead) and Cock N Bull ginger ale

and the new black currant shrub I made which is extremely delicious

it's only five weeks since my ablation -- which has a 12-week recovery period, except i just spent one of them back in hospital with heightened heart rate and atrial flutter :|

i've already given up coffee, and i think i'm going to give up alcohol also, at least till the end of the 12: the hospital stint wasn't alcohol-related but why not give everything a bit of a rest from that kind of extra beating?

and yet you tweet

i will never log off

3 weeks and no real cravings as such (I'm not a big drinker, really, but can be destructive when I do). Usual things are apparent for me: generally steadier mood, reading lots more, sleeping better, more continuity of thought.

I liked to get drunk when I was 19 or 20, particularly if I was at a show. Always beer — hard liquor never held much interest. But I got bored with that after a while, because I got more and more serious about writing and I absolutely could not write drunk. So by my mid-20s I was basically down to a beer or two here and there, usually with a meal. Then, in my early 30s, I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes and my doctor told me that if I drank alcohol, I should stop, because it would interfere with the oral medications I was taking (and still take). So I stopped. I've been "on the wagon" for about 15 years now, and while I'm sure I could go back to drinking if I wanted to — I'd be able to calculate the effect on my blood sugar and regulate accordingly — I don't actually miss it at all.

Ask me to give up caffeinated beverages (I chug unsweetened iced tea and Coke Zero by the gallon) and I'd have a much bigger problem.

Ive gone from heavy drinking 5+ days a week (I'm sure Ive talked about it before on ILX) to now doing light drinking 1 day a week, maybe 2 if I'm extra-good. I've still indulged a day here and there, and I'll continue to keep trying to reduce the amount and regularity.

What finally kicked me into gear was a sudden rapid increase in real bad LFTs. And in only 3 months, I've got them way down and closer to normal, so its working!

Xmas/summer hols is gonna be hard :/

NO one told me about the fecking sugar cravings though. I never had a sweet tooth. What is this fresh hell.

Go for it Trayce, taking care of yourself is a powerful thing to do

2 wks.

The sugar craving is real! I went from not having of a sweet tooth to requiring daily dessert, sometimes more than one!

I don't have a sweet tooth either but I remember when I didn't drink for several years and was focused on working out and eating well, I was obsessed with ice cream for the only time in my life.

from the old to what extent does your life revolve around alcohol? thread

used to be a daily drinker to a greater or lesser degree but i barely drink at all now

the anti-depressants i'm taking at the moment make drinking a lot less fun - if regular drinking feels like putting the output of your senses through a fuzz pedal and playing a glorious windmilling pete townshend power-chord, then drinking on anti-depressants feels like fumbling a jazz chord and getting drenched in pints of piss hurled by an angry audience

― for sale: clown shoes, never worn (bizarro gazzara), Thursday, 10 August 2017 13:27 (two years ago) bookmarkflaglink

two years on from that post and i'm now off the antidepressants but i barely drink at all - i guess i just fell out of the habit and, since my wife barely drinks and i have a 15-month-old daughter whose sleeping schedule doesn't lend itself well to managing hangovers, i've never picked it back up again and i'm on the wagon by default ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Habit is a powerful force huh. Well, I’m on the wagon tonight in solidarity with y’all.

Sounds like a better place than 2 years ago, BG

4 weeks in, Friday night booze introspection: when I'm drinking, Fridays are when I have a few beers and sit about eating and listening to music. Without the booze, I'm more inclined to let the evening drift and don't have the same urge to get myself 'up' for it and am way less sociable (just ask my wife) - to the point where I can't really separate the sociability and the booze and I wonder if that part of my personality is really just the booze. Like, I can't face social occasions without the thought of drinking.

Short version: I worry about becoming a dullard.

i quit about a decade ago and have brief dalliances every now and again but have mostly sworn off alcohol as the least interesting of drugs.

was working in clubs and bars and restaurants and got into the habit of loading up at the end of the night as it was generally free or cheap but had one-too-many nights of throwing up on the subway or ending up at the wrong house trying to get in or just generally being an asshole. grandfather died of drink and i have definite obsessive personality issues so it seemed better to err on the side of caution. I will have a beer if that's all there is to drink but I find everytime i have one drink, I have six. it's just not a good idea for me.

and don't worry about being a dullard; i find most people who think drink makes them interesting are ignoring that it's more of a depressant and that it is, in fact, suppressing your real personality which is undoubtedly more interesting than you on booze.

3wks in and found the post work conference drink hard to navigate. Prevalent "it would just be the one" thoughts as I stood at the bar. Managed to get a tonic water without anything harder but didn't stay long with everyone who was throwing stuff down and have had similar introspective time since then thinking about sociability. Hard to come to terms with realising that there's been two of me for so long one of which is an obnoxious boor. Thanks for the useful perspective ulysses.

5 weeks today, gonna go sell records in a bar all day long

ymmv with this tactic, but something i did early on while quitting, as i had to spend a lot of time at or near bars: I would start by approaching the bartender at a quiet moment with a fiver on the bar and saying "Hey, I'm really trying to quit drinking, can you make sure I only have a cranberry and soda in my hand all night?" Bartenders are people too, they tend to respect if you tell them up front what the deal is and tip them immediately.
Also: candy helps to deal with the oral fixation elements. I would go through a packet of tic-tacs a night for awhile.

yeah I am all about bitters and soda. I spend a fair amount of time in bars anyway and I went into this knowing that. My wife's still drinking as well, none of that seems to matter - proximity doesn't seem to be an issue thankfully.

at least two of the other sellers don't drink either, shit we're all getting old

Hey, I remember hearing an AA saying somewhere (possibly Infinite Jest) about how "doing your best is what got you here." But searching that doesn't bring me any relevant results. Does anybody know what I'm talking about?

no but the implication (I believe) would be the "you can't do this alone" focus of 12-step - you, by yourself, doing your best, isn't enough to overcome addiction.

7 weeks for me this coming Sunday, last Sunday I tried about a 5-6 ounce pour of a fresh hop IPA at a DJ gig, it was pretty good but I had no desire to drink more either at that point or in the following days.

still reading The Naked Mind and it has turned from vague hippie nonsense to terrifying scientific precision regarding alcohol and its effects.

is the "spontaneous sobriety" thing that she's going on about here actually a real thing in anyone's experience?

https://www.addiction.com/12020/what-are-the-odds-youll-get-sober-on-your-own/

"Spontaneous sobriety" as described in that article is not exactly spontaneous. People quit drinking or cut back to non-problematic use without formal treatment, sure. But I don't know of anyone who has done this without making some significant changes. IME it doesn't just happen naturally, as the word "spontaneous" suggests. It takes effort. That effort may look different people, but sitting around not making any changes and hoping that sobriety happens spontaneously? Yeah I've never seen sobriety happen that way. Do that and you are way more likely to get worse, not better. EtOH is an addictive neurotoxin, that is really quite undisputable.

whew Monday night was rough, it's the boring evenings that bring on the desire.

52 days now, gonna try for 90 and then take stock

there seems to be something of an arms race happening here - every can at the bodega is a double-blasted IPA clocking in at close to 10% ABV, i think there's one at like 13-14%. i think of them as new 40s.

I feel your pain, brother. There are exactly two non-double IPA cans I can buy at the bodegas, Lagunitas and Deschutes Fresh Squeezed, everything else is 8% or more. And forget about a 19.2 lager or pilsner! So not gonna happen.

clove cigarettes are mostly tobacco anyway, they don't really count as a substitute

This is a thread for ILXors OFF THE WAGON (and for the Off the Wagon Curious)

^does this deserve its own thread or should I just use it as a subtitle in next year’s at the bar thread

Lol I was never suggesting cloves as a tobacco alternative just to be clear.

could never get cloves here, but I was in NYC for my 26th birthday and met a girl on the way back from a club in alphabet city who gave me a box of Djarums and I thought they were fucking delicious. I bought a packet of some other brand and they were awful though, it was just that brand I liked maybe

Dajarums where the gold standard. I don't think I ever got any others. That said, I prob bought them less than 10 times in my life but, yes, those are the good ones.

I just realised I should not be on this thread lol

I realized something that I neglected to mention upthread re: not drinking. One of the last pre-pandemic events I went to in 2019 was the memorial service for my ex-mother-in-law (I was married 2008-2009). She had a pretty high-end career and upper-class lifestyle but once she retired she made up for lost time and hit the bottles harder than most broke punkers I've seen. In ten years, she was dead from total liver collapse.

Every time I smoked a clove I was too drunk to remember it... but I definitely knew the next day.

Trip report, I was able to control my intake to a surprising and satisfying degree Friday and yesterday, happy about that

Small steps that feel good are good amirite

Yes indeed : )

I'm 17 days into a mini-wagon. Not a big boozer, particularly, but have had a few weekend benders of late. I've been low-grade ill, so not really felt the full benefit; even still, the clarity and *readiness* on weekend mornings is a revelation.

Good for you, hope it goes well ❤️

The weekend morning thing is amazing, truly.

zzz

Thanks for the good wishes gyac.

My mini-wagon is now 5 weeks. If I thought I could get through Christmas without it, I'd 100% continue. Not missing it in the slightest.

Because I don't know where else to post it: I recently listened to Scatman John's first album for the first time, and was nonplussed when it contained a song ("Take Your Time") that any AA would recognize as being very obviously about AA.

Favorite AA song: Vic Chesnutt, “Stupid Preoccupations”

Anyone have experience with Refuge Recovery? I’ve been listening to the podcasts which are kinda like guided meditations and a nice alternative to AA dogma.

a little, that mirrors my take. I have a book on it but never went to a meeting.

I went to some Refuge meetings c.2017-2019 and I liked it well enough. The one near me was a very small (probably <5 people on average) weekly meditation meeting at a zen center out in the country, but when I visited Asheville there were groups with 30 people meeting every day and taking meetings into treatment facilities and stuff.

Unfortunately, not long after that, the Refuge Recovery community split in two for reasons that were not entirely clear to me -- I remember hearing at the time that it had something to do with the founder/author of their book sounding off on social media & wading into public controversies, but never tried to confirm it. All I know is I woke up one morning and half the meetings on the website were gone. I worried they had closed their doors for good, but it turns out most of them formed a new fellowship calling itself Recovery Dharma.

The People's Recovery Front vs. the People's Front of Recovery.

the founder Noah Levine was also accused of some sexual malfeasance of some sort or another, not sure if that had anything to do with this schism you describe

Yeah, that's right. I dunno why I thought it was social media posts, my brain must have been busy that day.

I think (I hope) the org that continued under the name Refuge Recovery no longer has Levine in any kind of leadership position today

...nope I am very wrong about that

He can always blame it on booze

feeling super relieved right now

an addict in my life went to a recovery group for the first time recently

they had a lot of anxiety about it. last time they went to a group they were in a different city that didn't have a lot of queer-focused recovery groups. even though there are plenty of queer-focused recovery groups around here, they were pretty hesitant

turned out a good friend of mine was there. it just helps to know you're not alone, y'know?

Big time

Also helps not to use the word “addict” imo

Like I would be quite displeased if someone referred to me as “a cancer in my life”

my bad, i'm new to all this language... you're right that it's essentializing, i don't see them that way

tbf "addict" but is a term i've heard frequently self-applied within the recovery community

I went to some Lifering meetings, way more mellow and less performative than AA ime but maybe that was just my group. Also learned about wood turning.

Ime the important thing is just to have “fellow travelers” to go through the shit with, not necessarily following some recipe

I have no problem calling myself an addict. In fact, I think it's important.

That's just me. Your mileage may vary.

same. Good to recognize it, no?

this is probably one of those speak for yourself but not others kind of thing….

lol jimbo otm iow

same. Good to recognize it, no?

It has been for me. I had to rewire my brain.

I’m in the “I’ve had an SUD” camp, which is tbf pretty nu-skool

SMART Recovery is another AA alternative. CBT based approach.

SMART recovery is good, I got a lot out of it (including the motivation I needed to actually get something out of AA meetings, by "identifying not comparing"). They do discourage the use of labels like "alcoholic" and "addict" in their meetings.

I say "alcoholic" when I'm at AA, I say "addict" when I'm at DAA, I don't go to NA, and when I'm talking to normies I say "a sober person in long term recovery, and what that means for me is I haven't needed to drink or take drugs since (MM/DD/YYYY)"

...unless they're British normies, then I go with DD/MM/YYYY

I've had some pretty good non-drinking stints over the past few years but I'm still mostly running behind the wagon trying to keep up once in a while. One tactic that's helped me cut down when I'm out at bars is for every beer I drink I have to follow it up with a bitters and soda, which I've found to be better than NA beers and hop water for scratching that drinking itch. Some of my issue is that I will down any beverage in front of me pretty quickly, my bladder's capacity being the only thing that really slows me down. I always play it off as saying "I'm a thirsty guy" but it's probably more a compulsion issue than thirst (I'm also a very fast eater). Last night I went out to a show and felt like I was drinking a decent amount and when it came time to close my tab I was pleasantly surprised to see just 2 beers on it.