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I was surprised that Thunberg is 16 when I saw it.... she looks younger to me

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/09/greta-thunberg-climate-change-movement.html
As a young child, she says, she was diagnosed not only with Asperger’s but obsessive-compulsive disorder and what’s called “selective mutism.” Beginning at age 11, seized by a deep depression about the fate of the world, she stopped talking and eating. That has led, she says, to the stunted growth that today gives her the appearance of a preteen, a wise-beyond-her-years golden child.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:33 (four years ago) link

thunberg is really more Cassandra than clickbait as far as i have been able to ascertain but who knows, everybody gets milkshake ducked sooner or later

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:34 (four years ago) link

Thunberg's aneurotypicality makes her an easy target for olds of all types who seem inclined to consider her more mentally ill than realistically terrified for the future of her generation, which is part of why she's had such an international impact. Who can't sympathize with the idea that the prior generations have fucked the world up? She may just be more right than we ever were and she's got the citations to prove it.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:37 (four years ago) link

I have images/videos turned off and I knew before clicking through exactly what KM's video would be.

― Welcome To My Lifemare (Old Lunch)

it's fun down here in living hell, isn't it?

Sally Jessy (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:38 (four years ago) link

xp that all said, man alive i do understand your exasperation with so-called grown ups with power asking an indigo brigade to save us from ourselves; that kind of slacktivism is surely a bad look

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 18:38 (four years ago) link

That was the theme of greta’s speech yesterday!

treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:11 (four years ago) link

IIRC the children's lawsuit is specifically based on the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, so children are exactly who should be talking about it.

It's in addition to activist adults, not instead of.

Ramen? No thanks, I prefer them cooked (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:17 (four years ago) link

"This is all wrong. I shouldn't be up here. I should be back in school on the other side of the ocean. Yet you all come to us young people for hope. How dare you!"
xp

treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:17 (four years ago) link

yeah, her self-awareness is a large part of the reason i am #teamgreta

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:25 (four years ago) link

excessive liberal faith in grandiose statements of moral outrage as effective politics

don't you ride for bernie sanders?

flopson, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:42 (four years ago) link

Sorry to disappoint but my “contrarian” take on Greta Thunberg is that I can sympathize with her plight as an annoying moralist who’s definitely on the spectrum and has an impressively low BMI

— Anna Khachiyan (@annakhachiyan) September 24, 2019

flopson, Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:44 (four years ago) link

I don’t know if I’d call the Red Scare ladies “moralists”

treeship., Tuesday, 24 September 2019 19:54 (four years ago) link

one month passes...

latinx okay i get it but i still think it is kind of dumb

― marcos, Monday, August 29, 2016 11:21 AM (three years ago) bookmarkflaglink

sorry to drag up this very old post but i agree with this opinion regarding latin x and sort of agree with the thrust of this article by ross fucking douthat lol

Liberalism’s Latinx Problem

Why is Elizabeth Warren describing Latinos with a term that few would use themselves?

Everyone remembers the image that demonstrated Donald Trump’s cluelessness about Hispanic voters: the picture, from May 2016, showing him grinning like a fool over a tortilla bowl, with the immortal tweet attached: “Happy #CincodeMayo! The best taco bowls are made in Trump Tower Grill. I love Hispanics!”

That Trump tweet received entirely deserved scorn from practically everyone in my profession. On the other hand, nobody save a few carping conservatives found anything unusual when Elizabeth Warren, possible Democratic front-runner, began conducting her outreach to Hispanic voters using the term “Latinx.” (Though she did take a little flack, after the first Democratic debate, for pronouncing it “Latin-X.”)

But if Warren’s linguistic move seemed normal to journalists — in our world, the phrase “Latinx” is increasingly commonplace — it’s still a curious one for a politician doing outreach. There’s very little evidence that “Latinx” is a thing that many Hispanics or Latinos call themselves, at least in the kind of numbers that normally determine how political candidates talk.

“Though Latinx is becoming common in social media and in academic writing,” a recent Merriam-Webster “words we’re watching” entry noted, “it is unclear whether it will catch on in mainstream use.” And last week a progressive pollster ran the numbers and found that it hasn’t caught on at all: “Despite its usage by academics and cultural influencers, 98 percent of Latinos prefer other terms to describe their ethnicity. Only 2 percent of our respondents said the label accurately describes them, making it the least popular ethnic label among Latinos.”

Beyond its novelty, there are obvious reasons for that stark unpopularity: When spoken, “Latinx” sounds like neither normal English nor conversational Spanish, and it looks like what it is, a word designed for ideological purposes rather than for felicity in speech. If you are deep inside progressive discourse, you will immediately understand those purposes — “dismantling the default masculine” of romance languages, centering gender neutrality or nonbinariness in place of a cisgender heteronormativity. If you are outside that discourse, politicians who use it will sound like they don’t know how to say “Latino,” or like they’re talking to an audience that doesn’t really include you.

Which, for a politician, seems like a bit of a problem. One of the common defenses of political correctness is that it’s just a synonym for politeness, for calling people what they themselves want to be called and showing sensitivity to minority experiences and burdens that men or white people don’t share. Which is sometimes true: The example of white people whining that they don’t get to say the “N-word,” for instance, shows how anti-P.C. sentiment can sometimes reflect a desire to ignore history and flip common decency the bird.

But just as often the language of P.C. has more to do with imposing elite norms of discourse on a wider population that neither necessarily wants them nor fully understands their purpose. This is a particular issue as highly educated white liberals become more progressive on racial issues than many African-Americans and Hispanics; in that context the language that dominates progressivism often emerges out of a dialogue among minority activists and academics and well-meaning white liberals, without much engagement with the larger minority population, its assumptions and habits and beliefs.

That lack of engagement turns the politeness argument on its head. It is certainly polite, if you operate in a social world where most people of Latin-American descent describe themselves as Latinx, to use the word in conversation and correspondence. But in their public-facing rhetoric, Democratic politicians are speaking to people who mostly don’t use that word, don’t prefer it to other labels and may not even recognize it. So a politician who uses it, especially a white politician who uses it, may come across as condescending, jargon-dependent and, well, rude.

This weekend I wrote about how the increasingly ideological character of the Democratic Party could create a policy problem for its presidential nominee, by forcing a figure like Warren into a detailed defense of a likely-to-be-unpopular, unlikely-to-pass proposal for Medicare for All. Warren’s adoption of “Latinx” is a different example of this problem: There’s no policy here, but the rhetoric still suggests that Warren is distinctively beholden to a hermetic academic-progressive world, to a point where she doesn’t know how to talk to the less-ideological, less-woke, maybe-even-somewhat-conservative Hispanics whose votes her party needs.

[Listen to “The Argument” podcast every Thursday morning, with Ross Douthat, Michelle Goldberg and David Leonhardt.]

One question about a more progressive Democratic nominee, Warren or Bernie Sanders, is whether either can win back white Obama-Trump voters in the crucial Electoral College states of the Upper Midwest — states where Warren, in this newspaper’s polling, currently trails Trump. But a related question is whether progressivism can succeed in consolidating the larger share of the Hispanic vote that Democrats expected in 2016 and didn’t get — an 80 percent rather than close to a 70 percent share, which would tip states like Florida and Arizona and even Texas and make Trump’s Rust Belt resilience moot.

It’s possible, as many progressive activists insist, that the way to achieve that consolidation is by energizing and organizing nonvoters through a campaign that runs clearly to the left. But a lot of Trump-era polling shows the president holding or even expanding his Hispanic support, and it shows Warren, in particular, struggling with Latino voters, both in the primary and the general races.

Which is what you’d expect if, as my colleague Tom Edsall has argued, Hispanics (and African-Americans and Asians) now represent the moderate wing of the Democratic Party, the pocketbook-conscious, somewhat culturally conservative flank. In that case they’re a constituency where a less-bigoted-seeming G.O.P. could make substantial inroads, and where even a figure like Trump, if the economy is strong enough and the Democrat seems sufficiently culturally extreme, can at least win enough minority support to keep himself competitive.

This is why it matters that the signals that Warren sends when she adopts a phrase like “Latinx” are the cultural equivalent of the policy signal that she sends with Medicare for All. In both cases, she’s telling anyone who listens that a vote for the Democrats isn’t just a vote against Trump (which a clear majority would like to cast) or a vote for popular liberal policies (of which there are many) but a vote for the new progressivism in full — no matter how many Americans, of all ethnicities, are distinctly unready for its rigors.

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:11 (four years ago) link

TS: using Latinx vs running concentration camps

DJI, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:20 (four years ago) link

(obviously ignore his arguments about democrat electability which i don't care about and/or agree with)

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:21 (four years ago) link

At this moment the FB chat with my closest friends is ablaze because my neolib buddy, a Cuban who just got a master's from a certain Ivy League school, can't understand "Latinx" while my academic buddy defends it.

In Miami, I never hear "Latinx" outside campus. We -- I -- still use "Hispanic" to describe Latin Americans of Spanish descent (which of course doesn't encompass Brazilians).

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 19:56 (four years ago) link

Are there people who think “Latinx” is offensive because its use implies there is something wrong with gendered nouns—ie something wrong with the Spanish language in general?

And is the response to this that Spanish is a colonial language anyway and it should be deconstructed?

This is what I wonder about this. I’m neutral on the subject, but I wouldn’t use it to describe someone unless I knew they liked the term.

treeship., Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:01 (four years ago) link

Are there people who think “Latinx” is offensive because its use implies there is something wrong with gendered nouns—ie something wrong with the Spanish language in general?

The few friends who've even heard of the term and reject it do so not because Spanish uses gendered nouns and they prefer them: to them it feels like an imposition, another kind of colonialism.

And is the response to this that Spanish is a colonial language anyway and it should be deconstructed?

In part. My friend arguing for its use writes, "I think the use of terms depends on contexts, too -- so I agree that politicians should used the preferred terms to appeal to the most people (in this case the census-approved hispanic), while also aligning with LGBTQ issues so as to not alienate that group either."

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:05 (four years ago) link

One of the common defenses of political correctness is that it’s just a synonym for politeness, for calling people what they themselves want to be called and showing sensitivity to minority experiences and burdens that men or white people don’t share.

seems critical - if ppl don't want to be called latinx we shouldn't do it

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:15 (four years ago) link

i use latinx, latino, hispanic in different contexts, they each have problems but none of them bother me that much anymore

marcos, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:38 (four years ago) link

my issue with latinx is three-pronged:

the über-woke: latinidad is itself a problematic, colonialist, racist construct

the prosaic: in the states there already exists a popular term for latinx people which is gender neutral: hispanic

the anti-elitist: because latinx is primarily used in online social-justice-social-media and academia the majority of people using it are bougie gringx

otoh i do appreciate the issues with the default masculine in spanish, i am happy to use latinx with people who like latinx

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:44 (four years ago) link

what are the issues with the default masculine in spanish

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:50 (four years ago) link

that its default. if you're referring to group of latinos - of unspecified gender - in spanish you use the masculine plural. there is a fairly long-running issue with this in the latin american (and spanish) left and in feminist movements, and a preference for usages such as "latin@s", "latinxs" (which i still see in chilean social media), and "latinx"

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 20:59 (four years ago) link

(this obviously being in the context of patriarchal societies with high levels of femicide, street harassment, sexual abuse, limited reproductive rights etc.)

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:01 (four years ago) link

I’m always wary of attempts to link linguistic features with real world issues as tho widespread adoption of latinx could potentially address those other very real problems

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:03 (four years ago) link

wait if it's not "latin-ex" how are you supposed to pronounce it

gbx, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:09 (four years ago) link

lateen-ex

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:11 (four years ago) link

oh yeah, that's another issue, combines spanish and english pronunciation

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:12 (four years ago) link

the anti-elitist: because latinx is primarily used in online social-justice-social-media and academia the majority of people using it are bougie gringx

I know plenty of people who use latinx who are of the group to which it refers. Yes, they are "SJWs" or "SJW adjacent" ... it makes me wince a bit that you seem to be denying marginalized POC the ability to be both "authentically" POC and active in areas historically dominated by white ppl.

I feel like latinx is functional as a shorthand for "latino/latina" even if you take the issue of gender binary out of the equation. And it feels a bit more inclusive than Hispanic -- in the way that Alfred mentions re Brazilians.

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link

i am latino

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:13 (four years ago) link

Thanks!

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:14 (four years ago) link

ladx

deems of internment (darraghmac), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:22 (four years ago) link

laxs(xx)

ت (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:23 (four years ago) link

sarahell you may be in an unusual group at least acc to that op article the number of latinx ppl who would refer to themselves with that name are marginal

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:24 (four years ago) link

i have latinx coworkers and friends that self identify as latinx; they are entirely under the age of 35.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link

xp Mordy -- I live in the SF Bay Area -- totally not representative of national norms, I will cop to that no problem

revealed belief: there is something inherently dorky about podcasts

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:26 (four years ago) link

xp at least one latinx friend is trans, so does that make calling them "latinx" more or less objectionable to you?

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:32 (four years ago) link

(nb: i am not going to take my social cues regarding race from ross fucking douthat)

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:32 (four years ago) link

I realize I'm posting anecdotal evidence, but none of the 20 to 30 students I work with closely -- 90 percent of whom are of Latin or South American origin -- identify as Latinx. And we have several gender-nonconforming students in this group.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:34 (four years ago) link

i misread the name as douchehat

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:34 (four years ago) link

No you read correctly

Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:35 (four years ago) link

are you asking me? if that's what they want to be called it seems ok to me i only question the wisdom of using these terms in political stump speeches when the number of ppl in the group who like the term are so marginal. obviously there's a difference between calling someone acc to their personal preference and what you say when talking about / addressing a much larger group. xxp

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:35 (four years ago) link

Warren also "said their names" re trans POC women killed this year, iirc? ... It seems like a strategic, considerate move to connect with progressive ppl who view issues of "identity politics" to be significant, whereas the social media filtered Sanders' messaging doesn't acknowledge these issues as much as some people would find appealing/reassuring? ... Not to bring this thread back to Bernie Bros ... I mean, if I want to talk about Warren vs. Sanders, I could spend even more time on FB

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:40 (four years ago) link

my feeling is that there's a SJ culture and then there are SJ issues and the two aren't synonymous and the former involves stuff like battling over terminology/idiom but is deeply unappealing to many ppl including ppl it supposedly covers and that there are issues that might be more widely popular if divorced from this sorta cultural discursive milieu - my preference is entirely the latter (substantive issues) and not the former (rhetorical maneuvers) at all primarily on pragmatic grounds but also personally i find the whole thing kinda tedious but that's subjective obv

Mordy, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:44 (four years ago) link

You're not wrong about the sense in which it feels like imposition, but part of the "people it supposedly covers" are LGBT people.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:49 (four years ago) link

i like latinx because it looks cool. But I also get confused about it so try to state the country instead (colombians, guatemalans) mostly to pause the americans who assume all spanish speakers are mexicans or puerto ricans.

Yerac, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:52 (four years ago) link

there's a SJ culture and then there are SJ issues and the two aren't synonymous

true, but there is overlap, and the "culture" often is, fuck it, "avant-garde" when it comes to issues or ways in which the issues end up being discussed and framed years/decades later. It's like that "goofy song title" thread -- practices from these esoteric realms often work their way into more popular arenas and then people end up asking, "so where did this come from"?

sarahell, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 21:56 (four years ago) link

Does anyone have a link to the progressive pollster poll Douthat is writing about?

Frederik B, Wednesday, 6 November 2019 22:21 (four years ago) link


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