Moore's comments are in fact extremely mild, merely prolix, with a fine rhetorical joke at the end (and were made over three years ago).
― insecurity bear (sic), Monday, 18 November 2019 21:16 (four years ago) link
sic otm
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 21:19 (four years ago) link
Responses falling in nicely among party lines I see
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Monday, 18 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link
if you catch the vapors over Alan Moore making a mordant joke that batheticises a fundamentally horrific intersection of real history & its mediation through pop culture, I have some bad news about the previous work & interviews of a man who was drawing a children's newspaper strip under the name "Jill de Ray" [checks watch] forty years ago
― insecurity bear (sic), Monday, 18 November 2019 21:30 (four years ago) link
I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks.
seems highly likely that Lindelof read this interview/quote three years ago and a lightbulb went off in his head about his stupid fucking TV show
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 21:41 (four years ago) link
Sounds like this is the first time it was published in English?
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 21:43 (four years ago) link
if alan moore thinks that comic books are fascist ubermenchen parables that indicate moral and/or emotional failings in its consumers i wonder what he'd think about this other guy alan moore who basically inscribed that particular narrative stylistically and is maybe more responsible than any other comic book writer for its aesthetic promulgation in the medium
― Mordy, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:00 (four years ago) link
maybe more responsible than any other comic book writer for its aesthetic promulgation in the medium
this seems like a stretch
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:06 (four years ago) link
Moore + Miller?
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:07 (four years ago) link
Frank Miller, for one, demonstrably worse for embedding actual cryptofascist politics in his comics
lol xps
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:08 (four years ago) link
i'll accept that he didn't act alone
― Mordy, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:10 (four years ago) link
lol u make it sound like he committed a murder. I think he just openly acknowledged - highlighted, you might say - some tendencies that were already deeply embedded in the medium. He didn't come up with the idea out of whole cloth, and other writers either trafficked in it or pointed it out way before Moore did (O'Neill + Adams' 1970s Green Lantern/Green Arrow springs to mind)
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:13 (four years ago) link
It all feels like a take that would have been smoking hot in 1986, and has cooled considerably in the decades since... but sounds like he didn't really have much to say about it anyway ("Frankly, I don’t think about comics that much, I don’t think of Watchmen at all, and the lasting impact of one upon the other is really no longer my concern.")
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:13 (four years ago) link
and *after* Moore other, much less scrupulous and creative people, really ran with it (Squadron Supreme etc.)
xp
i wonder what he'd think about this other guy alan moore who basically inscribed that particular narrative stylistically
luckily for you, he has expounded his criticisms of that guy at length since at least... 1988? when he had long finished his three-year career run of writing superhero IP, and was saying how bad The Killing Joke was before it even came out.
and is maybe more responsible than any other comic book writer for its aesthetic promulgation in the medium
a fine trick to achieve before his own birth
― insecurity bear (sic), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:16 (four years ago) link
xp Squadron Supreme predated Watchmen. Moore mentions it in this 1987 interview: http://www.tcj.com/a-portal-to-another-dimension-alan-moore-dave-gibbons-and-neil-gaiman/
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:17 (four years ago) link
haha! well that's even better
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:18 (four years ago) link
i don't think the idea of superheroes is inherently fascist is my feeling even if it has increasingly become that. superman's origins at least seem to be anti-fascist (themes of immigration, protection of democratic liberalism, responsibility in power, obligation to the community + society) - just having a superpowered individual doesn't inherently make a fascist story. nb i was only 2yo when Watchmen came out so i'm looking back on this history having read many comics from over the century of the medium and to me there definitely seems to be a cruel fascist emergence circa Moore's (and Miller's) contributions to the medium. were they always there? maybe but clearly the opposite possibility has also been present.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:21 (four years ago) link
fwiw i know this is an extension of the MCU conversation which i haven't really participated in but i'd like to say i've seen them all except some of the Captain America's, the new Cpt Marvel and like a half of a few of the ones i actually could not make it through (the new ant-man + wasp, one or two of the iron mans). my feeling is that they're too tepid to be fascist or anything really.
― Mordy, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:23 (four years ago) link
I don't think they're inherently fascist either, and I also don't think that (adults) who see superhero movies are necessarily clinging to their "relatively reassuring childhoods (or "the 20th Century"); or that there's a "numbing condition of cultural stasis" in modern popular culture... guess I don't agree w/Moore on anything here, lol
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:26 (four years ago) link
At least Scorsese didn't attempt to psychoanalyze the movies' audience (beyond noting that "people like theme parks," or whatever)
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:29 (four years ago) link
just having a superpowered individual doesn't inherently make a fascist story
I suspect Moore's contention is that it is, actually.
I'm not sure I entirely agree tbh, but I can see the argument - just in how the superpowered individual is inherently set apart from non-superpowered masses, making them uniquely responsible and capable, their existence automatically sets up a hierarchy with a power imbalance (similar to the basic cop POV: everyone who is not a cop is either a criminal or a victim, etc.)
― Οὖτις, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:32 (four years ago) link
but we know ppl come with varying abilities - to dramatize that as a way of showing how we all contribute to the general welfare, have responsibilities to one another all lives are worthy etc is to me one of the key functions of liberalism. if you're right about moore's argument i feel like just leads to denialism or harrison bergeronism
― Mordy, Monday, 18 November 2019 22:41 (four years ago) link
Moore is a literal anarchist, no duh he thinks stories about people born or chanced into massive power that they parade & exploit & dominate others with can have fascist undertones, overtones, and tones
― insecurity bear (sic), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:47 (four years ago) link
But with great power comes great fuckin' responsibility, y'know?
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Monday, 18 November 2019 22:48 (four years ago) link
"obligation to the community + society" literally covers most of fascism's self-justification iirc
i've said this before here but quite a lot of fiction over the last few hundred years is about people who don't have to play by the same rules the normals do i.e. kings, policemen, doctors, hitmen, detectives, wizards etc because it's easier to commit action to the stage/screen if this is so - there isn't anything stopping the hero from taking whatever direct or spectacular action the drama demands. i don't think this is (necessarily) a 'fascist' mode of creative production (though i'm pretty sure it can be!) but i also don't think it's moore's beef in that graf: he's saying the IP is stale and the execs who commission it are unadventurous.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Monday, 18 November 2019 23:56 (four years ago) link
"obligation to the community + society" literally covers most of fascism's self-justification iircSo it’s fascist until proven otherwise? LolA doesn’t equal B simply because B sometimes employs elements of A for “self-justification”Superhero stories aren’t inherently fascist for any number of reasons, including the fact that superheroes don’t typically behave like fascists; except when they do, in comics that are usually “exploring the links btw superheroes and fascism.” Superheroes are known for fighting fascists, either real (Nazis) or fictional (Hydra).
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:16 (four years ago) link
I'm not sure I entirely agree tbh, but I can see the argument - just in how the superpowered individual is inherently set apart from non-superpowered masses, making them uniquely responsible and capable, their existence automatically sets up a hierarchy with a power imbalance
He dug into this a bit in Marvelman/Miracleman book 3, how the supers and aliens remade society after they trashed London, brushing aside any objections from mere humans. It was satisfying to see someone completely defang Thatcher but it was a bit chilling at the same time. Much as I hate to give Mark Millar any credit, he deals with the power imbalances pretty effectively in Jupiter's Legacy.
― WmC, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:18 (four years ago) link
Mordy had opposed social obligation to "fascism" which i thought was pretty rich - the term fascism literally comes from the idea of individuals subsuming themselves into a bigger, more powerful tool or weapon
if i was being cheeky i'd say 'avengers assemble' now but *big donald trump energy* i won't say that
but again moore is kind of throwing that stuff in gratuitously to his main point, that this IP is comfort food for aging white men.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:25 (four years ago) link
much like 'the irishman' obv ;)
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:26 (four years ago) link
I guarantee "The Irishman" demo is like 400% older, whiter, and more male than that of the average superhero movie!
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:31 (four years ago) link
Yea easily
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:32 (four years ago) link
word
― Nhex, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:33 (four years ago) link
Glad we’ve identified the real enemy lol
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:38 (four years ago) link
Gabbnebb
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 00:40 (four years ago) link
superheroes don’t typically behave like fascists
They act like their belief in their own excellence justifies them in flauting any law or societal norm they choose in the service of gratifying their own self-righteousness.
― insecurity bear (sic), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 01:12 (four years ago) link
No, you’re thinking of super villains.
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 01:36 (four years ago) link
no, you are
― insecurity bear (sic), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 02:08 (four years ago) link
https://images.amcnetworks.com/ifc.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/pee-wees-playhouse.jpg
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 02:19 (four years ago) link
Funny how when i espoused a similar line of thinking to explain why I was Team Stark and not Team Cappy i got clowned in the Civil War thread
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:24 (four years ago) link
Superheroes aren't seeking power, or trying to consolidate power, or reinforce existing political structures. They're not opposing liberal democracy; or promoting nationalism, racism, xenophobia, or authoritarianism. They're not acting in a political way at all. They usually operate outside the state's control, and are at best grudgingly tolerated by the authorities. Often, the degree to which heroes should cooperate with authorities or the state is a major tension point (cf. Civil War, or the span of Captain America's entire career).
Their superhuman abilities are usually a gift, or an accident; and heroes committed to using their powers to protect the weak and powerless, often at great risk and expense to their own lives. And, fist and foremost, they protect the world from super villains, who actively seek power (of all kinds) and who exploit/attack ordinary people and seek to undermine the social order.
Of course, there are certain exceptions to all these points, in the zillion superhero stories ever written / filmed... but even at their "worst," most super-heroes are no more fascist than the cast of Watchmen (in Moore's own words from that 1987 interview):
There aren’t really any fascist superheroes in Watchmen. Rorschach’s not a fascist; he’s a nutcase. The Comedian’s not a fascist’ he’s a psychopath. Dr. Manhattan’s not a fascist; he’s a space cadet. They’re not fascists. They’re not in control of their world.
The intellectual frisson comes from the idea that superheroes could take control of their world, if they decided to... but that's generally relegated to thought experiments like Squadron Supreme.
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:30 (four years ago) link
("fist and foremost" is a typo; but I like it, LOL)
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:31 (four years ago) link
Superheroes are known for fighting fascists, either real (Nazis) or fictional (Hydra).
– largely written and drawn by creators who have never stood up for their own rights against the companies that employ them, much less the rights of a Jack Kirby or Jerry Siegel or Joe Shuster –
They usually operate outside the state's control, and are at best grudgingly tolerated by the authorities.
good to see you coming round
― insecurity bear (sic), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:47 (four years ago) link
Superhero stories that don't factor in the inherent potential for fascism are like seeing Yogi Bear cartoons as nature documentaries. Which is fine, no problem, but
― WmC, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:52 (four years ago) link
Which is why I liked X2. Mutants merely existing was enough for right wing politicians to try and herd them up.
Which lead to near Genocide from Magneto as paunack
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:54 (four years ago) link
Payback wtf
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 03:55 (four years ago) link
good to see you coming roundTo your notion that an “outlaw” somehow = a “fascist”? Naw, not at all.
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 04:07 (four years ago) link
I typed a few more words than "law" iirc
― insecurity bear (sic), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 04:53 (four years ago) link
The phrase you typed didn’t seem to describe (most) superheroes, or fascism for that matter.
― paris geller spinoff pitch (morrisp), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 04:58 (four years ago) link
http://cafart.r.worldssl.net/images/Category_3563/subcat_75878/aaaaMarshallLawAdRestoiredOverlay.jpg
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 05:00 (four years ago) link