I sometimes wonder whether y'all realise that most of what Trump has done is barely different to any other POTUS it's not one douche it's your fucking system
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague)
Get outta here. It's a variant on the conservative saw about Nixon happening to get caught, nyuk nyuk. You can argue, plausibly, that many presidents have signed off on evil things (Pierce and Kansas-Nebraska, Buchanan and, well, everything) but Nixon was world-historic in American history. The point of history is to recognize the exceptions; otherwise, you run aground on a cynicism that's synonymous with sentimentality (waaahhh things won't change).
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:20 (four years ago) link
As far as trump, I think he is def toward the bad end of the historical range but I agree the danger has so far been overstated. Maybe a unique combination of vitriolic hate and sheer incompetence, but if anything the incompetence, while dangerous, may also prevent him from being more effective. He's also blunted by the lumbering and byzantine nature of our political system -- checks and balances do at least halfway work, it turns out. A lot of what I was worried would happen has happened, but to a lesser degree and on a smaller scale. Obviously there are exceptions, e.g. if you are an asylum seeker.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive),
You've got the order of your post wrong. He's unique precisely because of his contempt for asylum seekers. This is, "Well, it sucks if you're not like me."
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:21 (four years ago) link
OTT, in terms of what's worse:1) Immigration policy is undoubtedly worse, whatever you can say about how it was under Obama (which, itself, was historically bad, in part because of the changes effected post-9/11)2) White nationalist groups have been emboldened, not solely because of Trump but it helps3) Tax policy has been terrible for all but the wealthy under Trump4) Obamacare has been damaged by Trump's changes and deliberate neglect5) Our foreign policy is going to shit (but in more nuanced, national security state senses that I doubt the average person cares about or feels much)6) Trade policy appears to be harming farmers7) Corruption, graft and nepotism are much more out in the open and brazen
At the same time, I don't think we are close to dictatorship or any of the other more dire predictions at this point.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:24 (four years ago) link
I think waaaah things won't change under capitalist faux-democracy, Liberal or otherwise. Even tricky Dicky achieved detente with China which was a bigger achievement than some of the less reviled tossers who held the post.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:25 (four years ago) link
Maybe some ppl don't remember the dozens of articles about how Trump's administration is nascent fascism and essays by reputable Holocaust scholars like Timothy Snyder explaining how similar our situations are to pre-WW2 Germany but "he's not as bad as GWB" would not have been most ppl's takeaway two years ago and I feel like a lot of ppl haven't noticed yet that those are the circumstances we find ourselves as his first term comes to an end.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:28 (four years ago) link
I've argued often about Trump as culmination vs aberration. The two are a Venn diagram.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:28 (four years ago) link
I have a lot of LGBT friends in regular distress based on Trump policies and resurgence of hatemongering and my reactions are often to those expressions of distress. Especially my transgender friends.
I don't think we're on the precipice of dictatorship either but real people I know are affected by this and saying so. And real people I don't know.
That's what I react to - I think the overall point is that those of us who are privileged should be the ones using said privilege to stand up for the disadvantaged rather than wallowing in nihilistic despair all day, absolving ourselves of doing anything.
(I could stand to do more, for sure)
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:36 (four years ago) link
he's probably the new republican normal. they're probably not going to go back to nominating mitt romney types.
otoh their next trumpesque figure probably won't quite have the x factor of ol' donny deals the tv star and hopefully will be less electorally successful
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:37 (four years ago) link
Sadly otm on both counts
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:38 (four years ago) link
Personality cult candidates come along every so often (arguably Clinton and Obama), but you def can't build a party around them long term.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:40 (four years ago) link
One common take on Bevin losing Kentucky is that he had Trump's vitriol without his charisma.
i may be a little prickly on the topic of "what has he actually DONE, though?" because my former workplace has under attack systematically by a series of corrupt Trump-appointees since the transition began in late 2016, and just about every major environmental regulation has endured reversals and setbacks and completely transparent giveaways to heavy industries that will take years to reverse. that's not even including the effect of the supposed leader of the world actively fighting to make climate change worse.
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:42 (four years ago) link
and I'm a queer person of color for whom not even Bush appointees were so contemptuous toward people like us
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:46 (four years ago) link
I realise he's a terrible president and has materially made life more horrible and scary for a bunch of people, so fair enough. I just think every president was a horrible right wing cunt with blood all over their hands and the aesthetic distaste for Trump is often exaggerated and denies the general truth of the polity.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:47 (four years ago) link
This is a circular argument. If an administration aims its policies toward making your life a hell, then he's horrible and scary.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:48 (four years ago) link
"But he is as bad as smiling Ronnie and the dumb Bushes?" doesn't hold much water.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:49 (four years ago) link
I agree with NV et al on the subject that the current USA president is more of the same---conserving what was before. given that capitalism makes things steadily worse, more of the same means things get relatively worse.
this is all seen from overseas, thank goodness
― L'assie (Euler), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:50 (four years ago) link
As I said, fair enough. Awful on a scale full of badness is still awful. Shitty world if people think Biden would be an improvement tho.
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:52 (four years ago) link
Also Reagan, the Bushes, most presidents were capable of enacting more materially harmful policies, surely?
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:53 (four years ago) link
He is less predictable which is scarier, idk about worse. I’ve never been a big reagan guy either.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:53 (four years ago) link
It's hard to compare 3 years of Trump to 8 years of W or Reagan. So far I think W still did much more real and lasting damage, but there's a lot of time left.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link
I mean, I hope there isn't a lot of time left, but I'm a pessimist.
No president in my lifetime has had such a pernicious effect upon the electorate, particularly in terms of urging the more susceptible to give in to their basest and most antisocial urges. If he had no other impact during his tenure, that alone puts him head and shoulders above any other POTUS in the 'evil deeds' department. We're going to be dealing with his aftermath for decades.
― Yul, Tied: A Celebration of Brynner in Bondage (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:55 (four years ago) link
If you’re an accelerationist type he is good. No one could do more to make the US government seem stupider and less legitimate than he does.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:56 (four years ago) link
I always enjoyed Hunter S arguing that Ford was more pernicious than Nixon because his clown persona distracted from what he was actually doing
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 17:58 (four years ago) link
There is some truth to that kind of analysis. Trump seems monstrous and is monstrous; maybe this is “better” than someone who seems like a humble public servant but is monstrous. Idk. I despise this fucking guy.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:00 (four years ago) link
Certainly not making a case for Trump but yeah in some ways it's good when everybody can see what's on the end of the fork
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:02 (four years ago) link
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague),
This is true and also true of Reagan's amiability.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:07 (four years ago) link
it seems, in some ways, however, harder to oppose a regime like trump's as it is so chaotic and dysfunctional and he covers up everything he does with a whirlwind of outrageous lies. it's like a moving target.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:15 (four years ago) link
seems like people who don't think he's had an out of ordinary effect don't really care about the people/things he's had an out of ordinary effect on.
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link
that's why so many people got sucked into the russiagate conspiracy. they were looking for a pattern that would make sense of the traumatic idiocy of the situation.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:17 (four years ago) link
xp
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:18 (four years ago) link
The lying thing seems on a different scale with Trump. Also he's a moron, but then that's hardly new and, of course, Twitter didn't exist.
― 'Skills' Wallace (Tom D.), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:19 (four years ago) link
jfc did anyone read the mueller report
just the executive summaries
― Peaceful Warrior I Poser (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:19 (four years ago) link
I think what treeship means wrt "Russiagate" is the grand theory that Trump is "Putin's Puppet" and everything that's happening can be attributed to a neat and tidy plot by Russia.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:25 (four years ago) link
It's not just that guy - it's also the sort of people he has given power to (in government) and those he has emboldened (in the public arena).
The absolute worst people in the country were elated by his rise. They felt ecstatically vindicated by his victory. And they act out their horribleness more loudly and more openly than they did beforehand, because they believe the Trump ascendancy gives them greater impunity to be the assholes that they are.
― they see me lollin' (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:26 (four years ago) link
xp That's just easier to make sense of than what seems more likely to me, which is that a narcissistic sociopathic reality tv host and landlord tapped into a perfect storm of resentment, ignorance, confusion, backlash, a weak democratic party and candidate, and certain shifts in right-wing thought and strategy both nationally and globally, through a combination of savvy and luck, and that Russia probably helped a bit but isn't the prime mover here.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:29 (four years ago) link
So what your saying is, the system is fucked and enables monsters?
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:30 (four years ago) link
unquestionably, but I'm not sure how the fact that the system enables monsters negates the fact of the system-enabled monster. If the point is that ending the trump administration alone won't get us very far, I agree, but no tyrant has ever appeared in a vaccuum. The one hopeful thing I see coming out of the sheer visceral repugnance of trump is a ton of new energy and blood going into political organizing, and I still believe that anytime that happens, it net favors left vs center.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:47 (four years ago) link
I do agree that the future looks bright if the Dems can dodge the centrist wanker bullet
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 18:49 (four years ago) link
I'm having ongoing fights with my wife about my continued focus on "the big picture". I used to be an adherent of liberal democracy and Donald Trump's presidency, among other things, has opened my eyes about its larger problems.
The problems were always there, the government was never really acting in the interests of all the people, but for this world to function peacefully we need to have a certain level of trust for each other. Trumpists are people who did not have that level of trust in the system, gained power, and now we are all equal in that we have no reason to trust authorities, any authorities, or the Rule of Law or any of that shit. OK, yeah, maybe democracy was just a matter of plausible deniability. And now we don't have that plausible deniability, and we can't talk to each other, and if we can't talk to each other ultimately we get to the point where we can't coexist peacefully. How do we restore trust? Fuck if I know. I've been searching for the dolphins in the sea.
― tantric societal collapse (rushomancy), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:24 (four years ago) link
it's very similar to the effect of the Brexit referendum in the UK, the facade has come away and everybody can see the terminator for what it is
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:31 (four years ago) link
Ok. ahem.
I have a real one.
I essentially agree with this column. Not in every particular claim, but in the main, pretty much.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/22/opinion/art-politics.html
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:12 (four years ago) link
i mean, i don't support the dichotomy he sets up between the personal on the one side and the political on the other. but i find a lot of contemporary art one-dimensional and sort of weighed down by the surrounding discourse, which is often "political" but in an extremely abstract way.
― treeship., Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:18 (four years ago) link
Paywall - any chance of c&ping?
― Jordan Pickford LOLverdrive (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:19 (four years ago) link
I will not read a David Brooks column with the headline "Who Will Teach Us How to Feel?"
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:21 (four years ago) link
OpinionWho Will Teach Us How to Feel?When art shrinks to the size of politics.My colleagues at T Magazine had a very good idea. They gathered some artists and museum curators and asked them to name the artworks that define the contemporary age — pieces created anywhere in the world since 1970.I can’t stop thinking about the results. The first thing you notice is that of the 25 works they chose, very few are paintings or sculptures.Most of the pieces selected are intellectual concepts or political attitudes expressed through video, photographs, installations or words. In 1982, for example, Jenny Holzer put the words “Abuse of Power Comes as No Surprise” on a digital billboard in Times Square. In 1985, Barbara Kruger took an image of a ventriloquist’s dummy and printed “When I Hear the Word Culture, I Take Out My Checkbook” across its face.Of the 27 artists recognized, 20 were born in the U.S.The next thing you notice is that most of these artists haven’t captured or maybe even appealed to a mass audience. If asked to name the era-defining artists from the 49 years prior to 1970, most of us would come up with world-famous artists: Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, Georgia O’Keeffe, Mark Rothko, Alexander Calder, Edward Hopper, Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, etc. The artists listed here, from the 49 years after 1970, are generally not well known outside the art world: for instance, Gordon Matta-Clark, Lutz Bacher and Michael Asher.Most of the artists have adopted a similar pose: political provocateur. The works are less beautiful creations to be experienced and more often political statements to be decoded. In 1989, for example, Cady Noland made a silk-screen of the famous photo of Lee Harvey Oswald getting shot. There are eight large bullet holes across his body and there’s an American flag stuffed in his mouth.The most provocative pieces are in the realm of sexual politics, where the art world has had its biggest influence. Jeff Koons is recognized here for “Ilona on Top,” a painting showing him having sex with the porn star who would become his wife.Several works redefine female power. In 1974, the artist Lynda Benglis posed naked with a dildo between her legs. In 1972, Judy Chicago, Miriam Schapiro and others created “Womanhouse,” a living feminist manifesto. In 1993, Catherine Opie created “Self-Portrait/Cutting,” in which someone has carved two stick figures and a house into her back with a knife or razor. The figures depict an idyllic domestic dream that was hard for lesbians to realize at the time.The general attitude is: Let’s smash injustice with a sledgehammer. What you see when all these works are brought together is how the aesthetic has given way to the political, how the inner life has given way to the protest gesture.Artists have always taken political stands, but in some eras there’s more of a conviction that beauty yields larger truths about the human condition that are not accessible through politics alone — and these are the truths that keep us sane. Now one gets the sense that not only is the personal political, but that the political has eclipsed the personal. What’s missing from most of these pieces is human contact and emotional range.Among these 25 pieces, 20 are impersonal and only five allow you to see what life is like for another human being, including works by Nan Goldin and Judy Chicago. Only a few explore relationships and emotional connection. There almost seems to be a taboo now against capturing states like joy, temptation, gratitude, exaltation, betrayal, forgiveness and longing.The absence of that emotional range reminds you that one of the things art has traditionally done is educate the emotions. Lisa Feldman Barrett and other neuroscientists argue that emotions aren’t baked into our nature as things all humans share. They are constructed by culture — art and music, and relationships. When we see the depth of psychological expression in a Rembrandt portrait, or experience the intimacy of a mother and daughter in a Mary Cassatt, we’re not gaining a new fact, but we’re experiencing a new emotion. We’re widening the repertoire of ways we can feel and can communicate feelings to others.Barrett uses the phrase “emotional granularity” to capture the reality that some people — and some eras — experience a wider range and specificity of emotions than others. People with highly educated emotions can be astonished by the complexity of other people without feeling the need to judge them immediately as good or bad according to some political logic.This list fascinated me because it comes at a moment when everything is political — and our politics has brutalized the nation’s emotional life.One of the pieces that stands out is Arthur Jafa’s 2016 video montage “Love Is the Message, the Message Is Death.” It’s an intense compilation of the African-American experience — love, celebration, police shootings, religious frenzy, racism, dance, struggle. There are so many powerful emotions in a short burst, an overflowing of relationship. It’s a political work that transcends politics and reminds us: This is how life looks with human particularity left in.
My colleagues at T Magazine had a very good idea. They gathered some artists and museum curators and asked them to name the artworks that define the contemporary age — pieces created anywhere in the world since 1970.
I can’t stop thinking about the results. The first thing you notice is that of the 25 works they chose, very few are paintings or sculptures.
Most of the pieces selected are intellectual concepts or political attitudes expressed through video, photographs, installations or words. In 1982, for example, Jenny Holzer put the words “Abuse of Power Comes as No Surprise” on a digital billboard in Times Square. In 1985, Barbara Kruger took an image of a ventriloquist’s dummy and printed “When I Hear the Word Culture, I Take Out My Checkbook” across its face.
Of the 27 artists recognized, 20 were born in the U.S.
The next thing you notice is that most of these artists haven’t captured or maybe even appealed to a mass audience. If asked to name the era-defining artists from the 49 years prior to 1970, most of us would come up with world-famous artists: Pablo Picasso, Jackson Pollock, Georgia O’Keeffe, Mark Rothko, Alexander Calder, Edward Hopper, Diego Rivera, Frida Kahlo, etc. The artists listed here, from the 49 years after 1970, are generally not well known outside the art world: for instance, Gordon Matta-Clark, Lutz Bacher and Michael Asher.
The most provocative pieces are in the realm of sexual politics, where the art world has had its biggest influence. Jeff Koons is recognized here for “Ilona on Top,” a painting showing him having sex with the porn star who would become his wife.
Several works redefine female power. In 1974, the artist Lynda Benglis posed naked with a dildo between her legs. In 1972, Judy Chicago, Miriam Schapiro and others created “Womanhouse,” a living feminist manifesto. In 1993, Catherine Opie created “Self-Portrait/Cutting,” in which someone has carved two stick figures and a house into her back with a knife or razor. The figures depict an idyllic domestic dream that was hard for lesbians to realize at the time.
The general attitude is: Let’s smash injustice with a sledgehammer. What you see when all these works are brought together is how the aesthetic has given way to the political, how the inner life has given way to the protest gesture.
Artists have always taken political stands, but in some eras there’s more of a conviction that beauty yields larger truths about the human condition that are not accessible through politics alone — and these are the truths that keep us sane. Now one gets the sense that not only is the personal political, but that the political has eclipsed the personal. What’s missing from most of these pieces is human contact and emotional range.
The absence of that emotional range reminds you that one of the things art has traditionally done is educate the emotions. Lisa Feldman Barrett and other neuroscientists argue that emotions aren’t baked into our nature as things all humans share. They are constructed by culture — art and music, and relationships. When we see the depth of psychological expression in a Rembrandt portrait, or experience the intimacy of a mother and daughter in a Mary Cassatt, we’re not gaining a new fact, but we’re experiencing a new emotion. We’re widening the repertoire of ways we can feel and can communicate feelings to others.
Barrett uses the phrase “emotional granularity” to capture the reality that some people — and some eras — experience a wider range and specificity of emotions than others. People with highly educated emotions can be astonished by the complexity of other people without feeling the need to judge them immediately as good or bad according to some political logic.
This list fascinated me because it comes at a moment when everything is political — and our politics has brutalized the nation’s emotional life.
One of the pieces that stands out is Arthur Jafa’s 2016 video montage “Love Is the Message, the Message Is Death.” It’s an intense compilation of the African-American experience — love, celebration, police shootings, religious frenzy, racism, dance, struggle. There are so many powerful emotions in a short burst, an overflowing of relationship. It’s a political work that transcends politics and reminds us: This is how life looks with human particularity left in.
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:22 (four years ago) link
A comment:
@Tyler WilliamsI am an old white guy, an actor, and Shakespeare lover, Van Gogh fanatic and daily classical music listener...I frequently have your response to Brook's writings. But I must admit that these modern artistic expressions do leave me cold. I suppose because, like Brooks, I'm looking for comfort, solace in art. Anger frightens me (why I hate trump and the GOP). I know, I need to have courage, determination and resist...I wish modern art helped me. I feel lost.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:23 (four years ago) link
Fucking white people and their fucking lostness.
Fucking Van Gogh fanatics
― The Man Who Was Thirsty (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 19 November 2019 21:25 (four years ago) link