Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

The bad guy wasn't bad because he wanted to sell technology that he claimed would make "everybody super"; he was bad because of (as Eliza pointed out) all the killing he was doing, and the destruction and more killing that was about to result. The family didn't get involved to stop him from marketing some dodgy tech (much less because they "hate equality") -- they got involved to rescue Mr. Incredible, who was about to be the next to be killed. Then they saved themselves from being killed, and stopped the robot from destroying the city.

And, yes, it's a humorous & happy ending when superheroes find a way to live as part of society, something that has eluded many comic book heroes. Ever see Peter Parker dodge a punch and have to resist the urge to knock Flash Thomson into the next zip code?

it's been a minute but i'm pretty sure Buddy's POV on "supers" and what to do with them is played out as Villain Monologues with ominous music and closeups and stuff. and his whole motivation is envy of mr. incredible having superpowers while buddy is merely ordinary, etc.? but again it's been a minute.

it's only a happy ending for Dash. for the kid who gets third place and doesn't know Dash is cheating, it probably kinda sucks.

wasn't Syndrome trying to become the only superhero himself by killing all of the other superheroes?

prior to selling the inventions, that is?

I think he was using the other supers to perfect his tech, they died as his robots became better.

xxp What's your solution, a separatist homo superior program? The movie's working thru "what it would be like if superheroes really existed" -- much like Watchmen (to which it pays homage with the island, supers coming out of retirement, etc.)

There is an element of Mr. Incredible grousing about "everyone gets a trophy," blah blah -- but that's not even Ayn Rand, that's just, like, circa-2004 standup routines. Even if you choose (for some reason) to see the supers as a metaphor for "naturally superior" people in real society... well, even then, it sure doesn't play out like an Ayn Rand novel.

(let alone TRIUMPH of the F-ING WILL)

I would think the argument is that any depiction of superpowered people exercising restraint and good judgment is itself fascistic in how it misrepresents the psychological effect of absolute (or near-absolute) power.

🤔

so we're all collectively Brian Cox's character from X2?

If what Simon said is truly “the argument,” then someone should make it — citing actual superhero comics (and they better show that they’ve actually read a lot of them).

For one thing, superheroes usually don’t have absolute (or near-absolute) power. Even the most powerful among them live in a world where their powers are cancelled out by all the other super-powered beings that are bumping into each other all the time (heroes, villains, aliens, Celestials; Watchers, Guardians of the Universe, Galactuses; Greek/Roman/Norse Gods...).

It’s not our world! It’s not even (really) a metaphor for our world. That’s why it’s notable when something like Watchmen or The Incredibles does the “thought experiment” of bringing them into something like our world.

(Also, when there weren’t a lot of superheroes around yet, I understand that the power fantasies they represented may have been a little bit relevant to WWII-era U.S.; in which victory against actual fascism wasn’t yet assured. Buy war bonds!)

I would think the argument is that any depiction of superpowered people exercising restraint and good judgment is itself fascistic in how it misrepresents the psychological effect of absolute (or near-absolute) power.

― Simon H., Wednesday, November 20, 2019 5:17 AM (one hour ago)

this is an interesting point, though it might not apply to superheroes who don't come from earth -- like, superman would not necessarily have the same type of psychology as a human, which might be one reason he doesn't abuse his power despite having few constraints on it

I mean I would think that this explains the appeal of the Snyderverse Superman, who can't seem to help but exhibit a wanton disregard for human life once he leans into his powers

(feel free to read that as being more about Snyder than anyone else, and I won't argue)

it's been a minute but i'm pretty sure Buddy's POV on "supers" and what to do with them is played out as Villain Monologues with ominous music and closeups and stuff.

― weird ilx but sb (Doctor Casino), 20. november 2019 06:07 (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yes. He says 'If everyone is special... Nobody is special' and the music is really evil. That's it, that's the moral of the film. It's true that they make sure to point out that Buddy is evil and bad and incompetent in a lot of ways, but that doesn't change what the moral is.

The implication isn't just that it's good and right that some people are better than others. It's that it's so important that some people are better than others, that we shouldn't even try to help better the lives of other people. There's a complete disregard in the film for anyone who isn't super, Mr Incredible is 'altruistic' in the same way a billionaire who gives away ten percent of his wealth is, but who is absolutely shocked at the idea of a six percent wealth tax.

While I agree that the Incredibles is a shitshow, the point of money is that it's transferable.

(as an attempt to bring more sanity to this discussion, my reference point is that any statement that says "all superheroes" has to apply to Spider-man, which makes 50% of the statements itt fairly silly)

There's definitely a post 9/11 George W. vibe to a lot of "The Incredibles," coincidence or not. The key line that jumped out at the time was Elastigirl's mini-monologue:

Remember the bad guys on the shows you used to watch on Saturday mornings? Well, these guys aren't like those guys. They won't exercise restraint because you are children. They *will* kill you if they get the chance. Do *not* give them that chance.

this conversation is a lot of fun to read while watching the first season of the legend of korra

(which, i’m not that far yet, but is prob the first media i’ve encountered that deals really well with the implicit fascism of the superpowered since... watchmen)

It seems that I remember basically nothing about The Incredibles because I'm like aghast at all the killing that apparently took place in this movie for kids.

Although I see now that it was the first Pixar to receive a PG rating so I guess that makes sense.

That was for all the sex scenes.

And the drug use

It's that it's so important that some people are better than others, that we shouldn't even try to help better the lives of other people.

lol

Mr. Incredible and Frozone spend their evenings listening to a police scanner looking for opportunities to help others, at the risk of endangering their own freedom. ffs

That's not a good argument, that's part of the problem. There are so many ways in general to help others, and the film is very explicit that there's a lot of collateral damage stemming from the involvement of the heroes, and that the public doesn't want it. They are sitting around waiting for a specific situation to evolve where they can help exactly how they want to help, instead of doing what people really want from them.

in bird's defense, i think the film also suggests that at this stage, there may be some element of like male ego and mid-life crisis involved - getting back out and being a hero again as curative for the office grind, the whiny kids, etc. and it's def supposed to be bad/immature that he keeps it from his family. i just think *that* story (which I imagine was the elevator pitch for the movie, and how most people think of it if they had to quickly summarize its big concept) comports somewhat awkwardly with what the Buddy and Dash stories are saying about being "special."

so again i think it's a slightly muddled randian schtick, not fascism or authoritarianism as such. and possibly if we didn't also have ratatouille, where the sneering critics just want to tear down true genius until it so overwhelms them that they confess their worthlessness and repent, i wouldn't be so convinced of who this person is that i imagine making Incredibles.

don't forget the rat who hates his own kind

My feeling is that the ppl itt comparing Incredibles to Triumph of the Will have seen Incredibles but probably haven’t seen Triumph and only know it by reputation bc it’s such a silly comparison.

i have seen it and it was meant to be hyperbolic

i have also seen The Fountainhead because nobody in the UK has ever actually read Ayn Rand

Yes. He says 'If everyone is special... Nobody is special' and the music is really evil. That's it, that's the moral of the film. It's true that they make sure to point out that Buddy is evil and bad and incompetent in a lot of ways, but that doesn't change what the moral is.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:24 AM bookmarkflaglink

The implication isn't just that it's good and right that some people are better than others. It's that it's so important that some people are better than others, that we shouldn't even try to help better the lives of other people. There's a complete disregard in the film for anyone who isn't super, Mr Incredible is 'altruistic' in the same way a billionaire who gives away ten percent of his wealth is, but who is absolutely shocked at the idea of a six percent wealth tax.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:26 AM bookmarkflaglink

Just wanted to say that this is a really fucking stupid reading of The Incredibles

As Doctor Casino alludes to, most of the movie is about a mid-life crisis and the bad guy is bad largely because he keeps capturing and murdering people. Also, reading the main moral of the story as "some people must be inferior" rather that "don't limit yourself from helping others" is just moronic.

Lest we forget that the dude wrote *batteries not included, featuring robots whose innate superiority allowed them to overcome the lowly + average robot's burdensome need for batteries.

Who is helped by the son cheating in the footrace at the end?

Everyone has been hyperbolic, but it's not moronic at all, that's as stupid as saying it's Triumph of the Will redux. The heroes literally stop the bad guy from helping and improving the lives of regular people, and yeah, he was a bad guy, but it's not as if they then turn around and use his ideas to get people superpowers as well.

Frederick, they stop him from killing people. You are lying about the movie to people who have seen it many times. Gaslighting!

Also, just because a villain says something with EVIL MUSIC playing does not, in fact, mean that the movie endorsed his pov.

errr we're arguing that the movie is *against* his POV?

Syndrome’s psychology is made very clear. He feels spurned because he couldn’t be Mr. Incredible’s sidekick. Yes, the movie is against his pov that’s it ok to kill a series of supers while developing a killer robot meant to fake superpowers in an attempt to sell new weapons to the general public.

morrisp, i don't feel you're really giving a fair shake to the argument being made. no one disagrees that it's bad that syndrome murders people, and a good thing that he is stopped! what i'm suggesting is that additionally to his actions, his *motives* and belief system are posited as bad. i don't think that is out of line for discussing villains, esp. in a family film. the wicked queen isn't just bad because she sends a poisoned apple to snow white - we are meant to understand that it's also bad that she's hung up on jealousy and being "the fairest of them all," and that snow white's innocence of such concerns is a virtue. is this controversial?

so i'm saying, one message of the film to kids, among others, "don't trust people who talk about making 'everyone super' - they are just jealous of greatness," aka Harrison Bergeron. i don't think it's the only or even primary message of the film (see DJP's post above).... i just think it has a lot going on that its creators may not be in full control of, or that may have slid in as subtext while hammering out the biggest aspects of the story. which tbh is understandable for one of the most ambitious features of its kind at that date (listening to the commentary was v helpful for realizing what a huge task bird and co were taking on here). (it's also btw one of the best superhero movies ever made!)

i'd say it's comparable to the nolan batman films, where it's way too simplistic to say they just straightforwardly come down on the side of authoritarian politics and a surveillance/police state.... but also too generous and vague to say only that they're "complex" and "ambiguous" on these issues. the right-wing politics are *there*, but they're commingled with other things and anyway the films (especially ("Rises") are sloppy enough on other levels that i sorta go "ehh, it's not like he's making this finely-tuned manifesto, because he didn't even make a finely-tuned epic popcorn movie - a lot of stuff just sort of got away from him." but it's worth noting when a film tilts right at key points. those do reflect choices, or at least, values and assumptions.

morris, you're not at all answering what I'm saying. Syndrome says 'If everyone is super... no one will be' in a really low voice, and then he laughs as if it's a really maniacal thing. Here, it's on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8I9pYCl9AQ

Compare to Black Panther: Killmonger is undoubtedly a bad guy, who must be stopped. But the film is also really clear, that what he is saying kinda makes sense, and in the end Black Panther kinda tries to do what Killmonger wanted to do, using different means. Here, Syndrome is just bad bad bad and everything about him is bad, and the lesson they take from it is that it's okay to cheat with your powers as long as you don't get caught. Iirc.

Frederick, I don’t understand what you’re saying in the last post at all. And I don’t know what Syndrome’s laugh being “on YouTube” has to do with anything.


Dr. C — I hear you, but comic book villains often have twisted versions of “noble intentions.” Also: “so i'm saying, one message of the film to kids, among others, "don't trust people who talk about making 'everyone super' ” — no one ever says this IRL, do they?

i am allowing children the possibility of processing metaphor. nobody in real life has magic mirrors to answer their insecure musings either.

And I don’t know what Syndrome’s laugh being “on YouTube” has to do with anything.

It's so that people can see what I'm talking about. This isn't hard.

Fred, can you explain what the allegorical meaning of "cheating with your powers" is supposed to be? I agree with Doc C that this movie's politics are messy and hard to resolve, but I don't really get what you think it's saying "powers" represent in real life.