Rolling Marvel Cinematic Universe thread (+ a poll: Classic or Dud?)

i have also seen The Fountainhead because nobody in the UK has ever actually read Ayn Rand

Yes. He says 'If everyone is special... Nobody is special' and the music is really evil. That's it, that's the moral of the film. It's true that they make sure to point out that Buddy is evil and bad and incompetent in a lot of ways, but that doesn't change what the moral is.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:24 AM bookmarkflaglink

The implication isn't just that it's good and right that some people are better than others. It's that it's so important that some people are better than others, that we shouldn't even try to help better the lives of other people. There's a complete disregard in the film for anyone who isn't super, Mr Incredible is 'altruistic' in the same way a billionaire who gives away ten percent of his wealth is, but who is absolutely shocked at the idea of a six percent wealth tax.

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:26 AM bookmarkflaglink

Just wanted to say that this is a really fucking stupid reading of The Incredibles

As Doctor Casino alludes to, most of the movie is about a mid-life crisis and the bad guy is bad largely because he keeps capturing and murdering people. Also, reading the main moral of the story as "some people must be inferior" rather that "don't limit yourself from helping others" is just moronic.

Lest we forget that the dude wrote *batteries not included, featuring robots whose innate superiority allowed them to overcome the lowly + average robot's burdensome need for batteries.

Who is helped by the son cheating in the footrace at the end?

Everyone has been hyperbolic, but it's not moronic at all, that's as stupid as saying it's Triumph of the Will redux. The heroes literally stop the bad guy from helping and improving the lives of regular people, and yeah, he was a bad guy, but it's not as if they then turn around and use his ideas to get people superpowers as well.

Frederick, they stop him from killing people. You are lying about the movie to people who have seen it many times. Gaslighting!

Also, just because a villain says something with EVIL MUSIC playing does not, in fact, mean that the movie endorsed his pov.

errr we're arguing that the movie is *against* his POV?

Syndrome’s psychology is made very clear. He feels spurned because he couldn’t be Mr. Incredible’s sidekick. Yes, the movie is against his pov that’s it ok to kill a series of supers while developing a killer robot meant to fake superpowers in an attempt to sell new weapons to the general public.

morrisp, i don't feel you're really giving a fair shake to the argument being made. no one disagrees that it's bad that syndrome murders people, and a good thing that he is stopped! what i'm suggesting is that additionally to his actions, his *motives* and belief system are posited as bad. i don't think that is out of line for discussing villains, esp. in a family film. the wicked queen isn't just bad because she sends a poisoned apple to snow white - we are meant to understand that it's also bad that she's hung up on jealousy and being "the fairest of them all," and that snow white's innocence of such concerns is a virtue. is this controversial?

so i'm saying, one message of the film to kids, among others, "don't trust people who talk about making 'everyone super' - they are just jealous of greatness," aka Harrison Bergeron. i don't think it's the only or even primary message of the film (see DJP's post above).... i just think it has a lot going on that its creators may not be in full control of, or that may have slid in as subtext while hammering out the biggest aspects of the story. which tbh is understandable for one of the most ambitious features of its kind at that date (listening to the commentary was v helpful for realizing what a huge task bird and co were taking on here). (it's also btw one of the best superhero movies ever made!)

i'd say it's comparable to the nolan batman films, where it's way too simplistic to say they just straightforwardly come down on the side of authoritarian politics and a surveillance/police state.... but also too generous and vague to say only that they're "complex" and "ambiguous" on these issues. the right-wing politics are *there*, but they're commingled with other things and anyway the films (especially ("Rises") are sloppy enough on other levels that i sorta go "ehh, it's not like he's making this finely-tuned manifesto, because he didn't even make a finely-tuned epic popcorn movie - a lot of stuff just sort of got away from him." but it's worth noting when a film tilts right at key points. those do reflect choices, or at least, values and assumptions.

morris, you're not at all answering what I'm saying. Syndrome says 'If everyone is super... no one will be' in a really low voice, and then he laughs as if it's a really maniacal thing. Here, it's on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8I9pYCl9AQ

Compare to Black Panther: Killmonger is undoubtedly a bad guy, who must be stopped. But the film is also really clear, that what he is saying kinda makes sense, and in the end Black Panther kinda tries to do what Killmonger wanted to do, using different means. Here, Syndrome is just bad bad bad and everything about him is bad, and the lesson they take from it is that it's okay to cheat with your powers as long as you don't get caught. Iirc.

Frederick, I don’t understand what you’re saying in the last post at all. And I don’t know what Syndrome’s laugh being “on YouTube” has to do with anything.


Dr. C — I hear you, but comic book villains often have twisted versions of “noble intentions.” Also: “so i'm saying, one message of the film to kids, among others, "don't trust people who talk about making 'everyone super' ” — no one ever says this IRL, do they?

i am allowing children the possibility of processing metaphor. nobody in real life has magic mirrors to answer their insecure musings either.

And I don’t know what Syndrome’s laugh being “on YouTube” has to do with anything.

It's so that people can see what I'm talking about. This isn't hard.

Fred, can you explain what the allegorical meaning of "cheating with your powers" is supposed to be? I agree with Doc C that this movie's politics are messy and hard to resolve, but I don't really get what you think it's saying "powers" represent in real life.

Who is helped by the son cheating in the footrace at the end?

― Frederik B, Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:25 AM (forty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Dash is helped, because prior to that he was acting out in unproductive and harmful ways, and was finally given an opportunity to participate in something constructive without being permitted to dominate it. Teaching someone who could without the slightest effort win every single medal to accept second place in a single event is . . . kind of important?

Also he went on to play guitar for Charly Bliss so clearly it was beneficial to us all.

the film is very explicit that there's a lot of collateral damage stemming from the involvement of the heroes, and that the public doesn't want it.

It's worth noting that the event causing the most damage, which really seems to instigate the backlash, is really Buddy's fault, so . . .

Dr. C — what is the metaphor that children will be processing?

(Eliza OTM)

imo the "powers" represent "talent" or "greatness" or "genius" --- the stuff that all those sheeple are jealous of. the metaphor, which i think we've been beating into the ground, is of Randian politics, meritocratic ideology, opposition to affirmative action, opposition to taxing the rich, etc.

dash being given permission to cheat so that he can feel good about himself and get an ego-enhancing medal seems like....not a great moral? winning, second, third, and tenth place are all equally effortless for him - we've seen him run fast enough to skim across the surface of water, for crying out loud. you'd think if he'd actually learned a lesson and grown a little, he might accept that winning these races isn't as important to him as he thought it was, or as it might be to other kids without magic powers. wouldn't it be more interesting to see him in the stands at the end, cheering for the winner?

why can't he just learn to work out his energy using his powers to help people anonymously as a masked hero? or helping around the house, or building his sister a treehouse super-fast, or something? well, the movie doesn't really have space for humble, anonymous heroics, because the Incredibles, as superheroes, are celebrities and get plenty of credit and adulation for their deeds. but if he's going to get credit and adulation somewhere, it *should* be for rescuing people from burning buildings or w/e.... not for posing as a kid who trained really hard for a footrace, and blocking an actual such kid from success. the movie is really not interested in how the third-place kid might feel if he found out, and actually the only model it offers for that situation is evil, jealous Buddy.

the metaphor, which i think we've been beating into the ground, is of Randian politics,

The Fountainhead doesn’t end w/Howard Roark learning to suppress his natural abilities and happily take 2nd place in an architectural competition.

meritocratic ideology, opposition to affirmative action, opposition to taxing the rich, etc.

These sound like things you’re bringing to the movie, sorry.

I haven't seen the film in a minute, but if he cheats from third to second, it's worth pointing out that he'd have got a medal anyway, but he wants a better one.

why can't he just learn to work out his energy using his powers to help people anonymously as a masked hero?

Because its dangerous and often counterproductive, the movie makes that clear.

or helping around the house, or building his sister a treehouse super-fast, or something

Because he enjoys running races!

why do ppl keep saying he cheated?

Like what, literally, is the “metaphor” of the footrace? In your reading of this as a heavily reactionary text

(considers a sub-standup shpiel about how okay so at the end Dash has learned to only use his powers to get one over on some people not all people, what does he want - a medal?)

why do ppl keep saying he cheated?

― Mordy, 20. november 2019 16:37 (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Because presumably you're not allowed to compete if you have superpowers, and he does anyway, but makes sure to do so in a way where he won't be detected.

Yeah okay I don't know how to use that word.

tbf It is kind of the projection of a kid in the movie, so perhaps an immature manifestation of the viewpoint in the Tarantino/Superman spiel from Kill Bill 2.

Morris, how do you think metaphors work, if you on the other hand thinks Doctor Casinos interpretation of the metaphor is something he himself brings to the movie?

my assumption was that he was trying to stay undetected so he didn't blow his family's secret identity not because of presumed rules on the books about not competing if you have speed powers

This derail is so much more entertaining than the thread had been previously.

Also - would it REALLY be a good idea if everybody had superpowers? The wrinkle for The Incredibles is that they were wise enough to use it fir good deeds, but how many people out there would be little Syndromes blowing things up?

It's not like every Super would be invincible and impervious to death

There's no rule that says a dog can't play basketball you can't run track with superpowers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIjQ_hBiZxQ

Why do you have to bring race into this?

I feel like indiscriminately giving everybody superpowers without warning would be bad.

Lol JiC

every response to any movie involves people "bringing things to the movie"!

The race isn't quite what I remembered, there's no speed force blur or anything, I couldn't really say "well this is his 'natural' speed" - it looks like anything other than really fast probably takes the same amount of effort.

xpost I usually bring in a falafel sandwich from the shop next door to the theatre.

Morris, how do you think metaphors work, if you on the other hand thinks Doctor Casinos interpretation of the metaphor is something he himself brings to the movie?

I think they work in a way where you have to make your case if you claim a bunch of extreme metaphors exist in a movie, not just state it as a fact and expect ppl to agree.

would it REALLY be a good idea if everybody had superpowers? The wrinkle for The Incredibles is that they were wise enough to use it fir good deeds

I feel like indiscriminately giving everybody superpowers without warning would be bad.

another thing you can't trust normies with is the vote. maybe later when they're prepared

Uh

Everyone feeling really optimistic about democracy these days?

there have to be a few people who are much more powerful than everybody else. otherwise we'll have chaos

when did i state any of this as fact?

Sure, let's equate being able to turn a building into rubble with your eyes to voting.

An incel going to bed one night with a dad bod and waking up with the ability to rip someone's heart out of their chest , can't see that going wrong

imo the "powers" represent "talent" or "greatness" or "genius" --- the stuff that all those sheeple are jealous of. the metaphor, which i think we've been beating into the ground, is of Randian politics, meritocratic ideology, opposition to affirmative action, opposition to taxing the rich, etc.

My problem with this reading is that the kids' powers are rooted in character traits (hyperactivity; introversion) that cause them trouble in situations that require conforming to social norms. Violet's power doesn't translate so easily into genius--it's more the banal message of 95% of all animated films: consider how your weaknesses/differences might be strengths and embrace/be yourself.

Also, I get that you're extrapolating from a principle you think this movie is committed to, but affirmative action and progressive taxation are way too embedded in specific histories and social contexts to be so easily reduced to an extremely vague "Randian politics" represented in a fictional world whose connection to those histories is not part of the narrative unless I'm forgetting something crucial.