END TO END BERNERS: The Official Bernie Sanders 2020 Crew thread

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i wanna go one day without tu quoque fallacies.

by the light of the burning Citroën, Friday, 24 January 2020 16:35 (four years ago) link

ok sorry my last post was needless snark but I would genuinely appreciate hearing how other candidates’ —including ones who dipped—policies on trans issues stack up against Sanders’.

A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:37 (four years ago) link

Great! Go find out.

Frederik B, Friday, 24 January 2020 16:38 (four years ago) link

there are a lot of people who I speak to on a regular basis who have this embedded fear that, like money, cultural capital is a zero sum game and things they take for granted or see as essential to their identity are going to be negatively impacted by someone else getting a leg up. they don't articulate it this way, but the idea is that someone with a viewpoint they don't personally recognize getting a slice of attention somehow diminishes their own role in society

the rogan listeners of the world have an overlap with that kind of culturally conservative viewpoint and it might be as simple as finding a voice they relate to in order to flip their view, realizing that their in-group can include trans people as well. there's a large swath of people who "don't have anything against gay people" who thought gay marriage was wrong who now don't give a shit because they figured out their own lives were 0% changed by that cultural shift

I don't think you're going to get many strong advocates for the disadvantaged in the group that easily shifts from anti positions to ambivalent positions, but injecting them into a community with diverse voices is going to shift them toward that ambivalence quicker.

babu frik fan account (mh), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:43 (four years ago) link

Rogan has a better record with LGBTQ issues than Joe Biden

The Mandymoorian (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:44 (four years ago) link

as a queer person who supports sanders this thread is not really helping me feel like i have a place among the rest of his supporters or that my priorities and concerns wouldn't be ridiculed by them so i'm gonna stop checking this thread

american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:44 (four years ago) link

It'd be great if everyone could be revolutionary, an advocate, or at the very least an ally, but I think believing in causes that help float all boats -- while maintaining a strong network of actual allies who are ensuring that some aren't left behind -- has a net positive effect

babu frik fan account (mh), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:45 (four years ago) link

^ not sure how far back we’re assessing records, but if he’s better than Biden, well I got bad news about Clinton

A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:47 (four years ago) link

tbh I suspected this thread would move in this direction eventually, especially if Sanders wins Iowa, NH, etc.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:47 (four years ago) link

the rogan listeners of the world have an overlap with that kind of culturally conservative viewpoint

I think this is only sorta true...I think his audience is more malleable than that, I think its a very reachable audience (precisely why its been so coveted by all the candidates). You don't go on there to pander to an imagined viewpoint/audience - you go on there to be given 2-3 hours to say what you're about, and there's nowhere else of any size you can really do that.

His comments are filled with people changing their minds, on all kinds of things. There's not many outlets for reaching people direct and changing minds in this way

anvil, Friday, 24 January 2020 16:51 (four years ago) link

I think also a lot of low information people out there, views not solidified, jumbled up, these are some of the most reachable people out there

anvil, Friday, 24 January 2020 16:52 (four years ago) link

Hillary literally said some TERF shit like a month ago iirc

bold caucasian eroticism (Simon H.), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:53 (four years ago) link

that's cool, i was gonna vote for hillary/joe biden but i guess i've changed my mind

y'all are being assholes

american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:54 (four years ago) link

Great! Go find out.


honestly the most definitive things I’ve seen are affirmation of the Equality Act and support for trans military service—which afaict every one of them either supports or has not publicly signaled opposition to.

Obviously I haven’t read or heard every single thing every single candidate has said since the primary kicked off.

A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:57 (four years ago) link

Sanders and Warren also both oppose the use of conscience laws or religious objections in things like providing health care or other services to trans and nb people.

Pete Swine Cave (Eliza D.), Friday, 24 January 2020 16:59 (four years ago) link

Which I think leads to real questions about persuasiveness, strong arguments, and reaching people - especially in a media landscape setup to achieve the opposite of that. Even assuming his audience does lean right, do we only want them to hear right wing nonsense? Or do we want them to hear alternatives? They're told leftists and progressives are terrible people, and then when they hear one at length the comments are full of "oh this isn't what I was told they were!"

This is like knocking on a million doors

anvil, Friday, 24 January 2020 16:59 (four years ago) link

thank you Eliza

A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:00 (four years ago) link

Cool posts.

Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:04 (four years ago) link

remember when Bernie went on Fox? What if say, Neil Cavuto, endorses him?

one thing I think we can all agee on is we all want the Transphobe-in-Chief bounced

Suggest Banshee (Hadrian VIII), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:04 (four years ago) link

If "bounced" is a synonym for something that would get me an interview with the Secret Service, yes.

Pete Swine Cave (Eliza D.), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:10 (four years ago) link

I should qualify when I said "socially conservative" I don't mean actively campaigning against social progress. While some people default to inherent hostility when they encounter experiences foreign to their own, at their most benign it's just this discomfort that's rooted in insecurity.

Some who are socially conservative by the harsher definition, when they hear someone who has experienced real adversity explain how they've been harmed, will attempt to argue or diminish their points. There are many who, when they actually hear someone make the same points in a venue that's familiar -- whether it's their home turf, or listening to a podcast they can relate to -- are open in a way they may not be for people they perceive as strangers. It's that ambivalent conservativeness that exists across the political spectrum.

babu frik fan account (mh), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:12 (four years ago) link

fwiw I'd rather Bernie / his people hadn't felt the need to tweet about it from the official account

bold caucasian eroticism (Simon H.), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:15 (four years ago) link

remember when Bernie went on Fox? What if say, Neil Cavuto, endorses him?

one thing I think we can all agee on is we all want the Transphobe-in-Chief bounced



real talk— if one of the prime time fox white nationalist op ghouls “endorsed” (obviously trolling) Bernie, I’d be pretty pissed if he thanked them, or didn’t outright tell them to go get fucked.

so in that spirit I can understand how some might view Bernie’s positive acknowledgement of Rogan’s endorsement .

A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:16 (four years ago) link

fwiw I'd rather Bernie / his people hadn't felt the need to tweet about it from the official account

Yeah, that was clearly a mistake.

pomenitul, Friday, 24 January 2020 17:18 (four years ago) link

I genuinely didn’t understand the Joe Rogan debate. He sucks but he’s not the first Bernie Sanders supporter that sucks. This isn’t new. I like Bernie Sanders despite despising his base.

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:34 (four years ago) link

Joe Rogan has a huge audience/platform; he is not equivalent to some random "supporter" or "the base"

rob, Friday, 24 January 2020 17:37 (four years ago) link

also if you really want to show up at this point and keep the debate going, then using a vague pejorative like "sucks" strongly reinforces the perception that the Bernie supporters itt do not take trans rights or anti-trans rhetoric seriously

rob, Friday, 24 January 2020 17:39 (four years ago) link

And he's a case where all of a sudden, people who have been saying since the last election that progressives (and Sanders's base particularly) shouldn't have to make deals with centrists and "the libs" are saying, "Look, you have to let these people into the tent." (Not saying anyone on this thread necessarily, but on Twitter for sure.) And when marginalized people who are hurt by this particular endorsement are objecting, they're being told to shut up and get in line. (Again, not here.)

Pete Swine Cave (Eliza D.), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:40 (four years ago) link

Ah. I should clarify that I have no idea who he is other than the guy from Fear Factor that now has a podcast.

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:42 (four years ago) link

I guess I was trying to make the point that I don’t think Bernie Sanders is going to adopt Joe Rogan’s views on anything.

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:44 (four years ago) link

he's the guy from news radio who has standup specials called like "triggered!" and has the biggest podcast in the world

bidenfan69420 (jim in vancouver), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:44 (four years ago) link

I guess I was trying to make the point that I don’t think Bernie Sanders is going to adopt Joe Rogan’s views on anything.

― Allen (etaeoe), Friday, January 24, 2020 10:44 AM (twenty-six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

you're a goddamn genius

american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:45 (four years ago) link

Even as a fan of News Radio I think I’m going to skip “Triggered!” 😆

I do know that he’s popular. In fact, I’m pretty sure I knew he had a podcast because he’s always on the top of the podcast charts on iTunes. But so is Bill Simmons and Bill Simmons isn’t coming up in my life either. I guess I just don’t see this as comparable to a person that I saw compare this to David Duke and Trump. Nevertheless I’m not trans and have no relationship with trans activists so I’ll 100% defer on whether judging this is harmful.

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:48 (four years ago) link

you're a goddamn genius

― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, January 24, 2020 12:45 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I know and I appreciate that I’m not the most sophisticated person here, especially about politics, but isn’t this the crux of the debate?

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:50 (four years ago) link

it is not

rob, Friday, 24 January 2020 17:50 (four years ago) link

I’m not trying to be antagonistic. I always find these threads helpful. Even when they are contentious. They have genuinely changed my world view over the past decade (or two).

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:51 (four years ago) link

ok tbc no one is genuinely worried that Rogan will influence Sanders' views

rob, Friday, 24 January 2020 17:52 (four years ago) link

And he's a case where all of a sudden, people who have been saying since the last election that progressives (and Sanders's base particularly) shouldn't have to make deals with centrists and "the libs" are saying, "Look, you have to let these people into the tent.

These are different ideas, though. Is anyone arguing that you need to cede ground on LGBTQ issues to whatever percentage of Rogan's fanbase are irredeemable CHUDs?

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:55 (four years ago) link

Yeah, that was clearly a mistake

I mean, it's not good but it's not a mistake - it will have been a prerequisite for the interview in the first place - Joe Rogan likes new fans too!

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 24 January 2020 17:55 (four years ago) link

If the fact that someone reprehensible announces their support for a candidate disqualifies that candidate from the support of progressives, then the neo-Nazis would be politically smart to draw up a list of the candidates they hate most and assign various of their hateful assholes to go on social media and loudly support those candidates, thereby losing each of them tons of votes among conscientious progressives.

A is for (Aimless), Friday, 24 January 2020 17:56 (four years ago) link

I listened for a while when I was driving 5 hours a day, in the period when it was mostly MMA guys and health and wellness grifters. Rogan is seemingly one of the dumbest, most credulous people on Earth, he will believe anything the person in front of him says with authority - but he's not actively evil. He's precisely the kind of person you can swing by breaking him out of his bro bubble where people repeat the Ben Shapiro attack helicopter jokes.

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:00 (four years ago) link

There's a parallel to Bill Maher, who thinks he's a genius and is far more mean-spirited whereas Rogan seems to accept that he's a dumbass.

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:02 (four years ago) link

These are different ideas, though. Is anyone arguing that you need to cede ground on LGBTQ issues to whatever percentage of Rogan's fanbase are irredeemable CHUDs?

It is not inconceivable that, given loud enough voices, an M4A bill would be constructed that would not cover gender-affirming surgeries.

Pete Swine Cave (Eliza D.), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:10 (four years ago) link

Who's suggesting that's an acceptable compromise to get the Rogan Vote and is there any indication a Sanders Presidency would follow that path?

Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:15 (four years ago) link

If anyone is wondering if I'm being an idiot, I am being an idiot - I'd thought that the Bernie interview was more recent and that it was the cause of this.

Andrew Farrell, Friday, 24 January 2020 18:31 (four years ago) link

the "endorsement" seems to have been made to Bari Weiss's face, which is perhaps the only good thing about it

symsymsym, Friday, 24 January 2020 18:37 (four years ago) link

the "endorsement" seems to have been made to Bari Weiss's face, which is perhaps the only good thing about it

― symsymsym, Friday, January 24, 2020 10:37 AM (thirty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

oh that's hilarious

bidenfan69420 (jim in vancouver), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:38 (four years ago) link

rogan sucks ass and bernie's camp emphasizing the endorsement is lame. i am a little bummed about it.

ingredience (map), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:43 (four years ago) link

^^ best take yet imo

The Squalls Of Hate (sleeve), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:51 (four years ago) link

i really don't know this Rogan guy, but Maher seems approximately as vile and I believe he supported Sanders in the '16 primaries

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, 24 January 2020 18:53 (four years ago) link


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