long-time reader first-time bread-maker

It’s a lot like panise. It goes with lots of things, some veggies or a salad on top is good. However I just normally have it with olive oil salt and black pepper. It was a staple of pizza shops when I lived in Turin and that’s all they ate it with there.

you can make a starter with any kind of flour but it’s true that rye is a bit more supercharged. start with equal parts flour and warm water, maybe 50g of each, stir up (with your hands), leave in a warm place, the next day ditch half of it and add a bit more flour and warm water in equal parts and keep going like this. after about 5 days you’ll have something that bubbles and rises. you might want to use water that you’ve allowed to sit for an hour, so that it doesn’t have as much chlorine in it.

i got rye flour to make the last starter i failed at. i got too excited that it was actually working, didn't stir it enough, and it got some mold on it. i will start another one today.

the starter recipe i used said to also add pineapple juice. would something like that help the AP flour starter? tracer?

i wouldn’t.

if it gets mold on it you can carefully scoop the mold off and what’s underneath ought to be fine. personally i take my starter out of its container at least once every couple of weeks and wash the container well so that mold doesn’t get a foothold.

xp

Hi relatively new sourdough baker here (gave up drinking, started baking!)

aiui the pineapple juice technique may well be good for AP flour. The book I'm learning from (Super Sourdough by the nice Scottish doctor guy from Bake-Off*) says that he's found it can make the difference with cheap white flour - that the acid kills off the bugs you don't want growing in there. iirc it can be any fruit juice or something similarly acid. And switch to water after first feed.

*I've never actually watched bake-off but he comes over well in this book. Good hand-holding, and goes into the why of things, which I like.

interesting! why not?

never heard of this before, but interesting read
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10856/pineapple-juice-solution-part-1

I've noticed a concerted uptick in people interested in sourdough all of a sudden, my wife has been giving out starter & advice. Although acquiring the equipment can be an initial hurdle.

what equipment? i use couple of bowls..

i was trundling along quite happily without it, because i was a bit indifferent to any that i'd had. then i found a local bakery that did *amazing* sourdough. the best. so i reluctantly paid *money* for it each week. then it shut down at christmas, and i haven't been able to find any that matches it since – hedone bakery in chiswick closest, but i ain't going anywhere near there these days because i'm isolating on the other side of london. i'm watching people's sourdough experiments to see whether i should do it, but it seems like x5 more pita than just a regular loaf, which i also can't do. i may try and get better at this over the coming period. xpost.

Scottish doctor guy from Bake-Off*) says that he's found it can make the difference with cheap white flour - that the acid kills off the bugs you don't want growing in there. iirc it can be any fruit juice or something similarly acid. And switch to water after first feed.

This makes a lot of sense all of the sake brewing methods I know start by making or using acid to protect the yeast from undesirable bacteria. Citric acid or lactic acid are used so it makes sense that something acidic like pineapple juice would work well. Plus all the sugar probably helps get the yeast going.

ah i forgot - a scale. you do want a scale that can measure grams.

Scale, Dutch oven, banneton baskets, proofing situation? That's just what my partner uses, probably only the scale is necessary.

She just made some loaves and I can see it on the counter from where I'm working.

I don't know how to invite people to slack. Does this work. Post your breads to this since it's much easier to post images. https://join.slack.com/t/poxyfule/shared_invite/zt-csm19k0n-P_w0mauC3_sXUXus~TI0mw deems started a cooking channel but I think you have to expand to see it and join. Called.: What do you cook like.

you successfully invited people to slack

I am partying in the streets.

Jordan yes okay i have that stuff too :)

but it’s absolutely not a requirement!

- you can proof a boule in a colander lined with a floured tea towel.

- dutch ovens are great but you can bake freestanding loaves. that way you can bake more loaves at a time. only difference is you need a tray of boiling water at bottom of the oven for the first 25 minutes to create steam.

but yes a scale is a hard requirement for sure.

Metal dough-scraper has been my favourite non-essential.

Had a large delivery of flour today, so all set to bake through the dark times.

Going to move away from sourdough and try a basic soda bread tomorrow.

yes a dough scraper can be quite handy. I have used a cake knife in a pinch.

First time breadmaker trying Jim Lahey's No-Knead bread. I expected many things to go wrong. I did not expect that when I took the preheated pot out of the oven and lifted the lid off, a blob of smelly melted plastic bowl would be at the bottom :(

oh god no :(

yes don't eat that

Bread turned out fine(*) in a normal saucepan, not sure if the le creuset can be saved :(

(*) considering I couldn't find the white bread flour and was making the dough with wholemeal till my wife came down and said that was a terrible idea, found the white flour, and made me double the recipe for two 50/50 loaves. like i said, first time breadmaker.

Also we have (hopefully) learned to store ovenware with the lids on upside down.

the ceramic coating is not porous so you may be able to save it. eeeeeek

Any focaccia recipes to recommend? Something to do with 00 flour other than pizza dough?

Soon I will be a first-in-a-long-time bread baker. Is that no-knead a good way to go or should I try something else. I may or may not have a KitchenAid mixer. It was acting a bit weird last I used it oh three or four years ago.

we are anxiously making our own sourdough starter. the first attempt died on day 4-ish, so this round we're being really by-the-book and worrying more than is probably necessary.

Yeah I'm gonna start with yeast, not sourdough starter. I don't need that heartbreak, I already have plants.

Is that no-knead a good way to go or should I try something else

It takes a long time (two proves of 12-18 and 1-2 hours each) but otherwise it ain't lying, just a minute or so of mixing necessary, no need for a mixer.

https://www.nigella.com/recipes/guests/jim-laheys-basic-no-knead-bread

Kneading is the best part. Highly therapeutic.

just don't knead too hard if you're making sourdough! needs to stay supple. keep those gluten strands strong, rather than mashed.

Any focaccia recipes to recommend?

if you like i can dig out my olde Green's cookbook that has a tried and true recipe i haven't made in years.

If you have the time and inclination, I’d love that!

shite. can't find the book. was certain it'd be where my other cookbooks are. may still be packed away or may have purged it (doubtful) when i moved a couple years ago. so sorry!

i'm gonna make this today though on account of you making me want focaccia, and me needing a little project:

https://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/focaccia-with-olives-and-rosemary-322

We did this, it turned out much better than an other italian baking cookbook recipe we also tried. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RQOhAeNAjKc

Oh wtf just embed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQOhAeNAjKc

I really like the Tartine Country White recipe for sourdough, but it can take a few tries to get it right and also takes a long time with all of the proofs. Not much kneading required though.

Those starting a starter should use distilled or spring water to feed the starter until it really get going. This avoids the chlorine in tap water that can inhibit early yeast growth.

i admire how this thread hurtled up out of my league so quickly

maybe i will make a starter at the weekend or something

I’ve done a lot from the river cottage bread book so I’d reckon their focaccia recipe would work welL

https://www.rivercottage.net/recipes/focaccia

i made rosemary garlic rolls with my dinner. i made bread! (ralph wiggum voice)

today i am making EASY PLAIN-FLOUR LOAF using this as my fast-action dried yeast:

https://i.imgur.com/AlEEJa8.jpg

(it does say instant dry yeast in little letters so nothing can go wrong in this non-turkish-speaking household)

my v supportive pal P has texted me to say "remember yr making BREAD not ROCK CAKES" in ref the picture up thread, along with multiple laughing-crying emojis so im stoked for this tbh

A good baking week. Big delivery of Shipton Mill flour finally came (ordered on the cusp of the crisis after a couple of weeks umming and ahhing about whether I would ever that much flour), inc 25kg of their basic white (number 4).
Couple of soda bread loaves for instant gratification earlier in the week, then a bit more time on a basic sourdough boule yesterday. I've been going at that one over and over; getting there. New flour good, timed and controlled the proofing better and getting better at the slap-and-fold knead after watching Richard Bertinet videos. Bit more confident handling dough.

ok now double in size you blobby pos

Coincidentally i also wound up with some Shipton No. 4, after biking to E5 bakehouse. Only 3kg for me though!

mark are you keeping it warm? 20C probably not enough - you want it more like 25 or so

you mean the dough when it's proving?

Nice, texture looks great. Is that a mix or did you have a recipe?

Uh id need to ask the house tbh, shes currently waspish over an email tho

Oh i read the question again, no shes mixing her own from some recipe

Nice loaves fizzles! On the mystery lack of spring - Tracer otm about making sure your starter is at the right point & lively. Maybe try cutting proofing time too, just to check on the over-proofing? Or work the dough a bit more early on to develop gluten and build the strength to handle the proof.

That is a very useful pre-shape video Tracer - I've generally just done 'shaping, but less so', but will try that pushing-around with the scraper next time.

I've found shaping the hardest part to nail. It's got better incrementally with a few factors changing - mature starter, I've got better at building strength, learnt how to handle dough better (flour hands over and over, don't be timid with it and work quickly - treat it like you're confidently handling something very hot, I read somewhere).

I used to go seam side up in the banneton, but I was reading the Forkish book late last year and he says seam side down, bake with seam side up. I've been trying it - not sure there's a huge difference. Slightly better crumb in the middle maybe.

Had been thinking about getting a thinner crust & got lost in this thread yesterday. Fascinating gluten knowledge.
https://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/54803/chasing-thin-crispy-not-thicktough-dough

Other random notes -
I've been giving it 30 minutes in the dutch oven, at the oven top temp (which says 260 but is more like 230 from the oven thermometer I bought to investigate), then ~20 with eyeballing with the lid off. I actually don't really know what difference the lid on/lid off split makes - ie, what does less steam do?
Relatedly, I have gone from 'haha baking nerds measuring temperatures, f that, it's probably about right' to monitoring several thermometers.

getting rid of the steam means crust will start to form. 20 minutes or so is about right. if you did, say 40 mins of steam and 15 mins without then your bread will be 'done' but your crust won't be a nice deep golden brown

yeah floury hands for shaping - but wet hands for stretching/folding!

Thank tracer - makes sense when put that simply. One of those things I want to experiment with - I don't really get things till I've f'ed around with them a bit.

on starter comments - yeah my starter this time around was v borderline imo because i’d been forgetting to feed it. almost threw it away but decided to go ahead and pleased i did. but yes, can see how that would be an issue for spring.

i enjoy the initial shaping process, a bit of swishing around and tension building. v nice pre-shaping technique in the video and will go for that approach next time.

woof - your temperature comments feel right for my (very bad) oven (ie lower than it should be). i’m going to extend the dutch oven phase a bit longer and see what happens. also dig out my oven thermometer.

i used to use an oven thermometer but it just stressed me out tbh. now what i do is 1) steam phase: maximum heat for at least 45 mins BEFORE putting in the bread. the whole appliance retains its heat better like this, so that when you open the door to put in your dough it can recover quicker. bake for 20 mins or so. like i said above i usually change to just bottom element for this part, but i use a stone rather than a dutch oven. 2) dry phase: turn down to 230C until it gets the right shade of brown. for me this is usually another 35 minutes but i like it really dark. i also remove the parchment paper for this phase so the bottom gets nice and brown.

crunchier crust tip: once you’re finished baking, leave the loaf in the oven for 10 mins after you’ve turned the heat off.

if you want to bake on a stone, you can put a pan of boiling water in the bottom of the oven about 10 mins before putting in the dough, and leave it there until the dry phase.

worth saying some people don’t turn down the heat for the dry phase, and bake for less time. they just keep it blasting. if i do that my loaves are a little gummy inside.

ALL OF THAT SAID fizzles your bread is beautiful and the crumb looks sensational and i bet it tastes great

ha ha it *is* great but i love the tips and am looking forward to applying them all and coming back here when things aren’t quite satisfactory for more tips until it is PERFECT.

worth saying some people don’t turn down the heat for the dry phase, and bake for less time. they just keep it blasting. if i do that my loaves are a little gummy inside.

Thanks for this tip, tracer. I had done this the last few times because I liked the brown crust, but was getting some gumminess so I think I will stop.

yeah! if you reduce the heat to about 230C and bake for maybe 10-15 minutes longer than you usually do that should get you there. i too like it very 'bien cuit'

by the way, my last two loaves i pre-shaped and left of the counter for the usual 20 minutes or so before final shape and into the bannetons.. except.. i ended up playing two and a half hours of NBA2K21. i let out a yelp when i went to the kitchen. the dough had developed a bit of a skin. i shaped as normal, put into the bannetons, which went straight into the frige, baked the next morning per usual.... and they were absolutely fine

suggest banneton

haha had an almost identical experience a couple of months ago after deciding to find out what World of Warcraft was like nowadays.

by no means perfect - the leaven was somewhat lacking in... jouissance, so it's not quite as buoyant as i'd like, and it's overfloured, but this loaf is great. crust is crackly and delicious as is the crumb. tracer's shaping video is really great for the pre-shape, and decided on woof's timings of half an hour in dutch oven and 15 minutes uncovered.

because the leaven hadn't risen quite as much as i'd hoped in the morning, i gave it another couple of hours in a warm area. this didn't make it any more bouncy as such, in fact it became a rather elasticated, not v holey substance, so i was worried about the outcome. i've heard i think that the longer you leave the leaven the more sour your bread tastes? If that's the case the leaven may not have been great for bounce, but was fantastic for taste.

https://i.imgur.com/nDnsEls.jpg?1
https://i.imgur.com/xgEQKxG.jpg

that looks EXCELLENT

yeah the “aeration” in there is magnificent

Looks great, bet it will toast really well in a few days when you’re down to the last of it

it’s nice getting back into the rhythm of doing a loaf a week habitually. really got to work on my final boule shaping which is a bit slapdash (surreptitiously looks to tracer for more magic videos or tips).

might start trying some other loaves and options soon as well.

Slightly frustrated - my head's not in the game. Just went back to Forkish's White bread with poolish - which I've successfully made a few times & is delicious - and had a flat disaster. Barely any rise.
Unripe poolish I think - normally I'd wait & maybe give it a little heat but I just threw it in, barely checking.
Now I must eat a dense, ugly loaf before I can trying again. This is my punishment.

the only way to learn is to eat the mess you’ve made, no question.

I neglected my starter in the run up to xmas, thought I got it going again but baked over the weekend and it felt closer to a ciabatta rather than a boule. Think I need to keep feeding that little dude even more than I thought.

people say you can let it go a month but ime if you leave it longer than maybe 10 days you really have to work to get it strong and active again

We were away for a few days after Christmas. Forgot to put the starter in the fridge & I suspect the kids had the heating on full blast, because there was pink mould on top once I got back. No smell, and very liquid. Seemed dead.

Got a couple of tbsp from the bottom and fed it a good mix of wholewheat, white and rye. Nothing after 24 hours. Tried to convince myself that it would be healthy and unsentimental to start a new starter from scratch & that I should get better at baking with instant yeast anyway.

But then! Tiny little bubbles the next day. Took about a week to actually recover, but it's alive & is baking as well as ever.

Taken it as a warning - I slowed down on baking since I got a dog, but I enjoy it & I was so glum when I thought the starter was gone. Made me realise I need to pick up the rhythm again.

(& of course I discarded & fed every day till it was back to its usual winter self - sluggish, 8-10 hours to ripen)

pink pink pink pink
pink mold