rolling explaining conservatism

Yeah, I see hella hatred in that last paragraph. But it's "the truth" and I hate the truth.

otm

"Leftism causes parasitic failure across the board," but it's not like I hate it.

Lotta handwaving about the ills of leftism.

it definitely explains why people who cannot stand the mildest of criticisms flock to Trump

"But that doesn’t matter to his supporters, because consequences don’t matter, and consequences don’t matter, because there’s always a way of escaping accountability when intellectual dishonesty is the lens through which one engages the world. What matters is impulse, urge, appetite, an itch, and other neurological bliss points."

https://stoehr.substack.com/p/trumps-ersatz-phallic-exercise

Ersatz Phallic Exercise is, coincidentally, the name of my Zappa tribute band.

Heard this Frank Wilhoit quote via the “Know Your Enemy” pod and it’s pretty perfect:

“There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

Woman shouts 'I still love sharks' after being attacked by one https://t.co/DsuxLcwenW pic.twitter.com/5jq8ZTwkn1

— New York Post (@nypost) July 16, 2020

https://pics.me.me/i-am-going-to-a-eat-you-nih-he-tells-4516847.png

^ tells it like it is

IF aliens are real, salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way they enter Heaven. #txlege

— Jonathan Stickland (@RepStickland) July 24, 2020

i am one degree of separation from that guy, he's as big a joke as you might imagine per my source

Jesus Christ is technically an alien.

true, just like...superman

Tweets that perfectly match the profile pic

Thread:

I saw a tweet where someone described that when they find out someone they know personally supports Trump, they lose all respect for them instantly. I liked it and retweeted it, but stopped short of sharing it on Instagram.

Why?

1/x

— Gabrielle Blair (@designmom) August 28, 2020

I was like 'who is this random woman' and then I looked her up lol

that thread is absolutely majestic.

That is a fantastic thread, and of course the first response I read is some handwringing "oh but how can you win them over if you block them?" crap from somebody I can only assume hasn't read or hasn't understood what she wrote

idk is she communist enough tho ;)

I lol'd @

I want to see you shunned by every person and organization that doesn’t support Trump. No more access to their books, movies, products, music, events, artists & influencers — till you are left with nothing but Smashmouth concerts, and Ben Shapiro talking about his sex life.

Its a win-win, as they want to be blocked

i quibble about calling him a child rapist -- it's an allegation and an uncertain one, unlike the clear case of him raping ivana.

i got pulled into another argument with my father-in-law. i’m usually able to find some things we agree about, and close the conversation off that way. he’s got brainworms. he watches hours of toxic conspiracy videos on the reg. it’s that particular french mix of anti-elitism, anti-semitism, and heady conspiracy theory. the rothschilds used to figure frequently. the whole family hates it. but they are pretty good at deflecting. maybe registering mild disagreement but then changing the subject. he often doesn’t want to. “je t’explique” and “laisse moi finir” are the usual phrases. his wife pleads: “jacques....” we usually end up agreeing that big business is out to screw the little guy and that you can’t trust the government.

this time it was chloroqui-however the fuck you spell it. it’s been “banned” because the companies who stand to profit from a vaccine want to corner the market on a cure. journalists won’t report on it because they’ve either been paid off, or because they’re state broadcasters whose bosses are in cahoots with the vaccine companies.

i’m a trained journalist who works for a state broadcaster. i’ve had COVID. but more than all that, i’m just not accepting the bullshit anymore. this bullshit will get people killed. i should have just done what i always do. but i couldn’t. it made him very angry. he became 3000x more entrenched than he does normally (which is quite entrenched). it was completely counterproductive. it changed nothing. my wife wasn’t there, thank god, but my 11-year-old son kept telling me to stop engaging. he was kind of scared about the fever pitch. my FIL gets very worked up. he was yelling. and i matched him. my 8-y-o went into the other room and laid down on the couch. they’d never witnessed me involved in anything like that. they’d seen my FIL do this plenty of times of course, with other members of his family. i think of it as very french. i feel sort of fucked up about it. on the one hand, i feel stupid, and i’m not happy that i helped create this awful scene for my kids to witness. on the other hand, i have just had enough of going along and pretending to agree, or that i don’t agree but it’s benign. it’s not benign. i don’t agree. i’ve had enough. i’m totally shaken up. my insides feel fucked, my head hurts.

sorry for the vent but i feel like this thread is one of the only places all of this will be appreciated.

There's a madness, a hateful angry madness, which I believe is almost entirely on one side of the political "spectrum" and all the toleration and patience and reasonableness comes from the other side, our side, and tbh Trace I'd rather just shut up and let it lie and not get into it with the hateful side but when you're close enough to one of them thru family or friendship you end up in these situations. It sucks, it sucks to stand up to it when you just want to keep peace, but fuck it it really is them not you and we've all got a breaking point. I know how sour and shitty it feels after one of these confrontations but I'm certain you have nothing to feel bad about.

yeah, i very much sympathize with all that, tracer and noodle. and what i've been struggling with lately is the aftermath of things like that, when you realize it didn't make a difference. how do you resume after that? in some ways i admire the willingness of some argumentative people to just drop it and move on. not all of them do, of course, i know. tracer, is your FIL the kind of person that will just pretend like it didn't happen? or is it a new grudge for him to hold?

tracer, on your behalf i'm gonna say fuck your FIL

Sorry to hear that, TH, it's a truly gruelling experience and there is no end in sight. For what it's worth, my own French FIL, whom I thankfully haven't seen in years, has also gone off the deep end since the start of the pandemic and his talking points are almost identical to those you just mentioned.

Hydroxychloroquine, prescribed by le bon docteur Raoult, a martyr in the struggle against the international medical dictatorship that holds sway over us all, from ocean to ocean and continent to continent, is the obvious panacea here, which is why it's being actively suppressed by the very pharmaceutical companies that are behind the French government's decision to stop reimbursing homeopathy and other natural remedies, which would have prevented this whole debacle in the first place, yet Covid-19 is of course a harmless virus, no more lethal than the seasonal flu, and was designed as such by the sinophobic CIA, whose agents have incidentally wiretapped our respective phones, not that it matters anymore, for he is no longer afraid of speaking truth to power (*yells a string of obscenities at Bill Gates, who is also presumably listening in*) and he certainly will not be voting for the Socialist mayor of his town again, who is complicit in this compulsory face mask wearing business, which has muzzled us, yes, muzzled us and reduced us to so much cattle, and he will never go see a doctor for his prostate despite the increasingly more debilitating urinary problems he has been experiencing now that he is in his 70s, despite the alarming look on his GP's face the last time he consulted a medical professional, almost five years ago now, Raoult's book is quite excellent by the way, I suggest you read it too if you wish to understand what's really going on before we all get press-ganged into accepting the Microsoft vaccine.

And so on, a never-ending logorrheic stream. To be fair, however, none of it fits into this thread per se, since his brainworms are of the far-left variety and thankfully free of antisemitic elements. But it's absolutely exhausting, and my wife has gotten into at least one spectacular screaming match with him over the phone in recent months. I don't blame her (or you) in the least! Nor do I think keeping your cool at all costs should ever be an objective when such bunk is being spewed, especially in a 'Latin' (broadly speaking) context such as this one ('agree to disagree' has no exact equivalent in French).

yeah raoult is the guy my FIL talks about too. this is his “proof” which trumps everything else.

thanks for your words folks. i feel so dumb and worn out.

he is totally the kind of person who will forget about this argument tomorrow, which is a blessing. anything like that on my side of the family would be brooded on for weeks and probably remembered for years.

TH, I empathize because I get into it with my parents fairly often,.and have since I was a teenager. We often don't talk about a lot of things as a result, but they read the books I write and the books I give them as presents and it's pretty clear where I stand on most issues.

Luckily they don't have cable,.and hate Trump with a fury,.but jfc some of their views are repugnant.

"anything like that on my side of the family would be brooded on for weeks and probably remembered for years." feel you Tracer

I totally sympathise Tracer Hand. I had a row with my old man last weekend. We've grown further and further apart politically in the last 10-15 years and we have pretty heated discussions pretty much every time we meet. Usually we keep a lid on it, but as soon as booze is involved... This particular spat was started by a 'I can't even sing Rule Britannia' statement and I was frothing at the mouth before I'd even had time to check myself. My wife eventually intervened thank goodness. He's a good man but I'm just sick and tired of the bullshit and the ill-informed stupidity of it all.

I felt like shit for about three days afterwards and, really, I won't have changed a single thing.

I've had numerous 'rows' in the last 10 years or so (3 or 4 since the start of the 'rona alone). I need to find a foolproof method for not engaging or at the very least for staying calm because this shit isn't going away and I don't want to destroy friendships and relationships.

my dad did that often in his later years. thing is, he enjoyed arguing about politics and since i was the only person he really had to do it with he'd keep trying to provoke me, and when i didn't indulge him he'd sometimes sulk anyway. i tried my best not to rise to the bullshit because i always felt like shit afterwards too.

every time the lads in the pub have their little mutual rants about the horrors of modern wokeness i just ignore it and watch the TV til they change the subject tho

My old man seems to enjoy it too, for sure, but lately, there's an edge of despair in him - nihilism, almost. I'm conscious of being there myself someday - that sense of being adrift (partly in terms of sheer relevance and biology) - and not wanting to be too scathing, but fuck me the inanity of it. Eck.

I have thought of looking into self-help books on the topic of persuasion -- a topic i am revolted by, but i figure it might help me in these situations. Are there any of these books that aren't aimed at assholes?

i don’t want to persuade my FIL of the correctness of my point of view. he never will be persuaded of that. i just want him to understand that i find his point of view shameful and dangerous and disrespectful.

i don’t think i succeeded. but i do think he will think twice next time before going off on one of his post-dinner rants. i’ll take it.

I have thought of looking into self-help books on the topic of persuasion -- a topic i am revolted by, but i figure it might help me in these situations.

This is now overlapping with the Friends with BrainWorms thread (and in some respects the Bad Faith thread), but I think the starting point here is to ask questions. If you're going to persuade somebody of something you have to also leave the door open to them persuading you. Without that, its not a conversation, its a directive. And persuasion comes from conversation, which means listening.

I think you can show persuadability in yourself, rather than being the brick wall with all the answers. Have to avoid the dynamic of lecturing to people who don't want to hear

Avoid dynamic of confrontation, look for commonality to build on. "Yes but" just reinforces the dynamic that you're opponents. Its a big ask to get people to move from holding opinion A to holding opinion B all in one movement. Loosening the grip on opinion A is the more achievable aim

Think about what it is you're trying to persuade on or talk about and stay on topic and as concrete as possible. I find that people conflate very different things all into one, and that they can veer wildly into different territory, I think its better to try and keep things focused as much as possible.

Keep calm, and be able to quit while you're ahead or if you're feeling your own irritation rise. Half the battle is actually with yourself. Being right about something is absolutely meaningless

One thing that can work well is asking them what they think that you think (if they're not likely to be irritated by that). Getting someone to try and accurately describe what you think is a much lower bar than getting them to agree with it. Often people aren't even accurately hearing what we're saying, so persuading them of anything at all is a high bar.

The closer you can get to a conversation rather than two people taking turns with statements the better

Don't aim for any resolutions during the course of an exchange. People need time to process things. It means resisting the temptation to drive a point home

All of this takes a fuck ton of time, and it may not be a productive use of your time, but if you're going to have exchanges may as well try and make them count

i appreciate all that anvil but i just am not interested anymore. i’m tired of doing all the work for so little reward. i just want him to understand that i don’t consider his opinions decent to express. that they’re shameful. that he should keep them to himself.

It was more in answer to abananas question. I totally understand not engaging at all. Its often the better approach.

gotcha. yeah, i am never going to change his mind. i just want him to shut up and stop bothering the rest of us. you should see him when the gears start working. he becomes like an animal. his whole face changes, he goes into this aggrieved, aggressive mode.

I have this scenario too with someone else, the Too Far Gone. I pretend he is a repairman telling me something about rock formations or something unknown to me, and that any aggressive physical manifestations are due to gallstones pain or similar. And then I engage as though that was the case. It works pretty well

yeah. that’s the way i need to go.

Modern conservatives believe that every government official other than their Dear Leader and affiliated scum are two things simultaneously:

1. total losers who couldn’t make it in a real job, like the private sector

2. cunning grifters who make huge salaries while doing nothing for the taxpayer

this does not apply to The Troops or The Cops or The Firefighters or the EMTs because those are all people who work hard every day* serving everyone for a pittance**

* standing around

** more than any teacher ever makes

Is it fair to say that mewling, quivering cowardice (overlaid with a gossamer-thin veneer of tuff guy bluster) is a necessary quality in the conservative of today?

Fear and anger.

Pretty depressing to see firefighters and EMTs lumped in with Cops and Troops. Very much not the same thing at all.