Joe Biden, Senator from Citibank (oops, DELAWARE), to Run for President

bogus assault accusations that can withstand the scrutiny imposed by a presidential campaign are probably much harder to concoct than most of us realize.

That's what they're counting on. To circle back to the before-times... the only way you have to make them care for your opinion is to not vote for them.

If they can nominate someone you believe is likely a rapist and you'll vote for them anyway... why would they not nominate their friend and colleague the rapist?

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, May 1, 2020 4:07 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Complaining about it but saying you'll go along with it anyway should get a shrug from the party leadership and anyone else.

― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Friday, May 1, 2020 4:08 PM

yeah, i understand your argument. even though i disagree, i think it's a reasonable point.

where i disagree is with when it is effective to not vote. i think RIGHT NOW is an effective time to not vote for him. if the primaries were going on as normal, we might get that chance. my state has already voted, but if I could vote again I'd definitely vote for anyone else, other than him (well, not tulsi gabbard i guess. fuck). i think quite a few other people will, too. maybe it'll be "concerning" to Democratic leadership when they biden just barely taking a primary against write-in votes. probably not.

but to not vote in Nov, against Trump? i don't think that's effective. the problem is that it's going to be difficult to convince enough people to do it, and then for it to be clear that the low voter turnout wasn't just due to "unenthusiasm", but instead due to a concerted protest against Biden and the Democratic party. the tactic of not voting in Nov COULD be effective if it was really organized and couldn't be ignored or mischaracterized (a tall order in 2020 or any year). but i think the chances of that happening, and really changing the nature of the Democratic Party through a mass rebuke in November, are really low. and of course, on the other side you have the 100% that the tactic would lead to a Trump victory. in other words, you're asking everyone to take an enormous risk in order to take a low-probability shot of making changes in the Democratic party.

but to not vote in Nov, against Trump? i don't think that's effective.

It's incredibly effective at making your will known. The question, though, is 'is it worth it.'

Voting for Biden in November, regardless of his opponent, is saying that sexual assault is not a deal-breaker. Which changes the equation in the future - if Democratic voters can continually be convinced that they're facing greater and greater evils, the lesser evil can be anyone and can have done anything.

Also: expect assault allegations against every male Dem nominee.

if they sexually assaulted someone, sure! and if they're a male dem nominee approved by the party mainstream, it's likely they did!

does anyone seriously think that these allegations aren't true? and, more broadly, that joe biden isn't a sexual predator? come on out, make yourselves known for real.

there are men in this thread who have literally learned nothing over the past four years about metoo or sexual assault. it's disgusting. valuable posters are leaving this place because of it. i can't say anything about the value of my perspective but i'm leaving ile at this point. sticking around ilm because i find it too valuable and i like posting there from time to time. but this place can rot in hell.

Feeling really shitty that you voted for the person you think is a rapist does not change the reality that you voted to make that rapist the most powerful human being on the planet.

(And if you're going to vote for Biden, I don't think you should get to talk about feeling shitty about it.)

cancelling state primaries, like New York's, looks even worse now than it did a week ago

It's really fucking shitty I live in Florida and if goddamn Biden remains the nominee I will sure as hell vote for him, the same way I voted for every other Dem war criminal for 30 years.

Voting for Biden in November, regardless of his opponent, is saying that sexual assault is not a deal-breaker. Which changes the equation in the future - if Democratic voters can continually be convinced that they're facing greater and greater evils, the lesser evil can be anyone and can have done anything.

i think you missed my point though, which tbf wasn't stated very clearly. i don't think that not voting in November will result in any sort of clear signal being sent to Democratic party leadership. how could it? let's say I don't vote, you don't vote, and a bunch of other people don't vote. Trump wins, 55% to Biden's 42% (or whatever). do you think that translates to a clear signal to the democratic establishment? or will they instead point to things like covid19 throwing everything into disarray, or the economy (if it's improving), or whatever new unpredictable factor will happen between now and then? or they'll just admit that they ended up with an uninspiring candidate, and put together some dumb report on what went wrong and what tepid primary reforms could be implemented to change it next time around. it won't be clear that the loss was because of a movement of people who decided that the only way their voice would be heard would be to speak in favor of no one.

in other words, you have to vote FOR things to be heard, not refuse to vote. the reasons behind a non-vote can and will be conflated with a bunch of other unrelated reasons for non-voting. there's no way to differentiate between them without knowing the individuals behind them

"i didn't vote because the way the party coalesced around joe biden and demonized tara reade was so fucking hypocritical, especially so soon after what happened with kavanaugh"
"cool. i didn't vote because i would only vote for joe rogan"

Also: expect assault allegations against every male Dem nominee.

The stop fucking nominating alleged sexual predators to the highest office of authority on earth!!! After you spent the past 4 years crying incessantly over pussy grabbing Trump and how you declared so righteously how strongly you believed Christine Blassey Ford and women like her's allegations and stories until it was no longer politically prudent for you no less!! Then you wouldn't have to worry about Republican smear tactics and fabrications over things like this holding any actual weight!

The Democratic party leadership made their fucking bed pushing this embalmed walking corpse over all other possible candidates to be their nominee to defeat Donald Trump in a presidential election. If they're not going to change the sheets and get this decrepit molester the fuck outta here before November after allegations like this continue to come to light... then they're just going to have to lie in it and accept the blowback from nominating such a person and the type of attacks, fabricated or real, they'll face because of it. And they'll have no one but themselves to blame when those attacks resonate as believable even if they aren't true (and who's to say future allegations are automatically false if Biden's past escaped proper scrutiny for this long!).

^ This.

btw the answer to "Obama vetted him" is "Obama let his daughter intern for The Weinstein Company"

“Not voting for the Democrat teaches them nothing” - as opposed to voting for Biden, which teaches them sexual assault is not a dealbreaker?

It’s ridiculous to say that withholding votes can’t and won’t be interpreted - and as ever, the options aren’t just “vote for Biden” or “don’t vote.” A vote for the Greens or Libertarians or Peace and Freedom can, quite easily, be interpreted ideologically.

If you want to give a clear message to the DNC in the general election that Biden was no more acceptable than Trump, due to the party whitewashing his sexual assault accusation, then organize a nationwide campaign to write in "Tara Reade" rather vote for Biden or Trump. Or just launch the idea on social media and hope it goes viral.

I wish Biden weren't the presumptive nominee; I've a looooong record hating him. And, yeah, I'd contribute to a campaign to stop him from being the nominee.

If he becomes the nominee anyway, then I vote for him as president. Because American history is full of evil men who sign good legislation and appoint good judges and justices. Again, I live in Florida; it's not even a choice. I don't want four more years of Trump because the judges and justices he nominates and the legislation he signs will be 100 times worse than whatever Biden puts over. It's not even a close call.

My wife, on hearing that Biden was very likely guilty of a sexual assault said she wasn't really surprised, but if it's down to Biden or Trump in November, she will vote Biden anyway. fwiw, I agree with her on this, and not with milo. In the upcoming Oregon primary we'll be voting for Warren or Bernie, as we would have even before this allegation blew up.

trevor does a good job of summing up my frustration and anger at this whole thing

dunno who trevor is

a few posts up

yes I see the name, don't know his identity

I’m not going to convince anyone to not vote for Biden, I just really don’t want to hear anyone’s self-flagellation about it. Whatever you think he’s done wrong is not a deal-breaker to you and the same things and worse will never be a deal-breaker to you so long as the Republican Party exists.

I carry no whips when I explain.

i shoot from the hips and i'm not afraid to roll the dice if the odds are lookin' good

well, yeah

trevor drops in on ilx from time to time, quite irregularly, to share his highly aggro wisdom on political subjects. I've not yet seen a post from trevor that was in other than a howling tone, setting aside whatever merits might be possessed by the opinion being expressed.

social security and medicare for all, birth to the earth

A vote for the Greens or Libertarians or Peace and Freedom can, quite easily, be interpreted ideologically.

lol a vote for peace & freedom can be interpreted as "I don't care who actually gets the gig"

"Obama vetted him"

when I think of all the things that disappointed me about Obama this by far is my #1.

It never made sense that Biden was his second. Or, it did and it explained Obama really well.

Even Obama's endorsement of Biden a few weeks ago (!) was exactly what I thought it would be.

it "shored up his right flank"; just ask Rahm Emanuel

stop triggering me Morbs

when Obama was quoted (by Bob Woodward?) saying that Trump is "just a bullshitter" he meant "who is more obvious about it than me and Joe."

oh my gawd

THE VIEWS EXPRESSED BY CONTRIBUTORS ARE THEIR OWN AND NOT THE VIEW OF THE HILL

BAH GAWD THAT'S HILLARY'S MUSIC

I would 100% support this as the funniest possible outcome, especially if she gets lowered onto the DNC stage like a Wrestlemania intro

The DNC has a stage?

a platform

hell in a cell

hitting someone with the dnc chair when the ring official is distracted

folks, pic.twitter.com/U91AzUunRL

— toilet_nightmare.aspx (@Phylan) May 2, 2020

grebt

Also: expect assault allegations against every male Dem nominee. I'm sure the right's got something cooking based on those early writings.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, May 1, 2020 9:21 PM (six minutes ago)

this reminded me that there was a bogus accusation against buttigieg last year that turned out to have been concocted by right-wing operatives.

Is the argument more than they would do this against any nominee but the range of people it would be effective with increases in line wirh if its credible or not? I'm not sure how much that turns out to be true in practice, but allegations that are credible surely have a head start over those that aren't.

If making a noise about not voting does have any effect, that seems a message not being sent in November but now, in terms of any decisions being made about whether to swap him out for Klobuchar or someone else or not

Something tells me Biden isn't a good candidate. Who would have thought?

One thing you have to give credit to Biden for - and is a strangely underutilized argument for him, in the event he is able to win he's the one that will bring out the biggest popcornest meltdown from Trump.

Trump oddly respects Bernie on a personal level, he'd still have a meltdown losing to him but he recognizes game. Losing to a woman would be tough for him to take and there'd be a meltdown but "history wanted a woman, but thats ok, in some ways I paved the way". Losing to guy that falls asleep on live tv and has almost completely checked out? Thats the biggest blow to ego by far, can you imagine losing to Joe Biden? Its hilarious, the ensuing meltdown definitely the most grandiose

So what? The purpose of winning the election is to dismantle and erase the shame and embarrassment of the Trump administration. I wouldn't care if he turned out to be a magnanimous loser and stepped aside quietly. Won't ever happen, but it would be better than acting as a rallying point for the whining, narcissist, white-privilege base who elected him.

"She could count on President Obama to campaign for her, as Biden also can, and she would also have ever-popular husband Bill helping out."

and to think trump got himself impeached over this guy

The purpose of winning the election is to dismantle and erase the shame and embarrassment of the Trump administration

You would think so, but there are some questions to be asked about the suitability of the weapon chosen for the battle