Recommendations for hip-hop without braggadocio (or these other tropes)?

what about like "hamilton"?

that's us history told through rap, does that make the cut?

Oh, I'm sure he'll find some convoluted way to discount that too, don't worry.

beyond disrespectful to create a thread like this now of all times ffs

Think it should have been clear that this thread isn't in good faith from the point the op said he'd read the lyrics of To Pimp A Butterfly on Genius but hadn't actually listened to the music.

Yeah you're all too nice, but well done for not rising to the bait.

LL Cool J's "I'm Not Very Good at Galaga" also recc'ed

― I am a free. I am not man. A number. (Neanderthal), Sunday, May 31, 2020 4:53 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

thread not a total loss

the anthony braxton of hip hop would presumably be someone who doesn’t call their work hip hop and isn’t regarded as such by purists either

If LL Cool J had a song called "I'm Not Very Good at Galaga," the verses would be lists of literally everything else he was good at.

like Galaxian. a true purist

Pomenitul, there is absolutely no reason why you or anyone else here can't "have both", if that is what you want. My question in the OP is meant merely to help me find more music matching my own tastes. If other people enjoy hip-hop with the typical themes, then good for them.

I listen to a lot of 12-tone serialism, a musical approach which many members of classical-music fora think should simply not exist. That it has its own community of fans is something which they either cannot manage to understand, or they simply don't care. Consequently, I myself have always tried to be tolerant of other musical genres. Even if I personally don't get a genre (and there are a number of genres, not just trope-based hip-hop), I am happy that it exists in the marketplace so that other listeners can find music they like. No one here should take my question as disparagement of the hip-hop I have encountered so far, only as a sign that I personally want to listen to something else.

I listen to a lot of 12-tone serialism

The Scott Walker fandom was bad enough, but this is where you and I part ways once and for all. Good luck in your quest. (I don't think 12-tone music shouldn't exist — if I could snap my fingers, I'd get rid of modern country first — but man, it suuuuucks.)

:(

Starting a petition to make "trope-based" classified as a slur.

As intriguing as I find hip-hop in terms of the beats or the wordsmithing, I find the braggadocio tiresome: for a performer to rap about how he is a great rapper just seems so lame. I also have no interest in mentions of weed or how life on the streets is tough. Thus, while I like some tracks by e.g. Roots Manuva, those tracks can seem like exceptions among the other material on those same albums.

Is there hip-hop completely without the aforementioned tropes? Has any hip-hop artist gone for abstract lyrics that are divorced from the performer’s public persona and his immediate environment? (Is there a hip-hop equivalent of Scott Walker’s Climate of Hunter album, for example?) Or is my wish as unreasonable as someone searching for oldies rock that isn't about dancing or sweethearts, or country music that isn't about pain and drink?

So, what recommendations might ILM have for me? Hip-hop is a global phenomenon now, so recommendations in languages other than English are welcome, too.

― Melomane, Saturday, May 30, 2020 5:57 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

this reads like a post that was written in 2001 but when they clicked Submit Post their computer froze and that person just unearthed that old computer in their attic and it sent

FPing everyone who responded earnestly to this thread btw

what is FPing btw?

FP'd for asking

("flag post" — and yes, i was joking about FP'ing you)

i wasn't joking

one of the most depressing ilx threads i've ever seen

ohh ok. Was sincere fwiw. If there's documentation on this board I haven't found it. Cheers

Yeah this strangely reminded me of teenage genre wars on 1.0 Internet.
Lol I googled "FP" and urban dictionary said "favorite person" and I was like cool :P

Melomane - and I say this as life advice, not just because I don't understand your worldview - just for the moment, as a mark of decency, shut the fuck up for a minute. Your "but I have a right to express my preference" stance is reading like some "all lives matter" bullshit in this climate, to the readers of this board. Doesn't matter whether you think it's fair, that's what is happening.

I think going to hiphop shows in Japan is the only thing that gave me the ability to think op might be sincere. That scene is such a strange translation/evolution it is easy to hate, you just have to take it on its own merits.

I think OP just lives in a complete bubble, like an armchair anthropologist wondering how he can make the world fit his worldview, dreams and ideals.

if he is real, I think so too. I just kind of checked out of that aspect and took it as a thought experiment. sympathetic to people finding that disgusting rn

It's a bit the infantile conscious VS gangsta debate as well.

I like rappin' without all this braggadocio
Platinum on my wrist and spitroastin' hoes

idk why OP wouldn't just listen to beats (tens of thousands of which are on soundcloud w 10 listens each, as was pointed out upthred) if OP is so concerned w lyrics

Makes me want to write some oldies style rock songs with surrealist lyrics

This somewhat obscure and not very funny bit just popped into my head, although I do like the trail-off at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqhJIvNCjy8

But the problem here is that one of my biggest hobbies is language-learning, so I probably would not be oblivious to the lyrics for long. It is hard to invest in an artist if you know there is a big risk of disappointment at some point.

did everyone miss this giant "i'm a troll can't believe you're all still engaging me in earnest" sign

yeah can't believe nobody called him a troll itt before u

just trying to be a light in the darkness 🙏

I’m still siding with “problematically eccentric” over “troll”, personally, if only because I can’t imagine what kind of person would go out of their way to antagonize ILX in this specific manner in 2020

well, in the long run, best bet is a lifer

This would be overly convoluted and yet extremely restrained trolling I really don't understand why people go to that assumption so quickly around here. Earnest longwinded requests for recommendations of hip-hop that contains atypical lyrical themes OMG what a great idea for a trolling exercise... give me a break. I also vote "eccentric".

i hate tropes, unless they have been properly Deconstructed in which case they're good now

support the tropes u commie!!

Tropes covered within Hip Hop & the industry itself:
Abusive Parents
Anvilicious/Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped
Angry Black Man
Banned in China: After gaining widespread popularity thanks to the success of the Chinese rap reality show, The Rap of China in 2017, the Chinese government started clamping down on hip hop the following year.
Big Apple Sauce
Black Sheep Hit
Boastful Rap
Broken Base: And how! Read the entry for details.
Controversy-Proof Image: Exceptions being Ice-T's cop killer controversy, which for all intents and purposes ruined his mainstream career as a rappernote and Nelly, due to the tip drill controversy. Possibly Public Enemy as well thanks to Professor Grif's comments about Jews.
Cool Car: Exotic cars , low-riders and modded car culture in general has always been a huge part of hip-hop culture.
Distaff Counterpart: R&B music has become this to Hip Hop. It's very rare for a urban radio station to play Hip Hop and not also play R&B. And much like Rap is a male dominated genre, R&B is female dominated. Record labels often feature upcoming R&B acts on established Rap artist singles since the genres share overlapping target demographics.
Domestic Abuse: There's a lot of songs covering the issue.
Enemies Equals Greatness: A lot of rap songs are all over this trope, especially songs from the Glam Rap and Swag Rap sub-genres. Just about every rapper loves to talk about their "haters" in their lyrics.
Executive Meddling: Especially after it became profitable.
Fandom Rivalry: Whoo boy!...
Follow the Leader: Oh yes, also a huge cause of Hip-Hop beef and Fandom Rivalry
For the Evulz: The lyrics to Horrorcore Rap, and some forms of hardcore hip-hop and gangsta rap.
Freestyle Version: Extremely frequent in the culture.
Genre Turning Point: Circa 1988, where hip hop broke into the mainstream, and the beginning of the Golden Age.
Gun Porn: A feature of the Gangsta Rap subgenre - discussing guns, and on rare occasions showing them off in music videos.
Hotter and Sexier: Specifically the music videos around the turn of the century. Which ironically makes the old 2 Live Crew videos tame by today's standards..
Intercourse with You: This is dirty rap's very fundament, although songs about sex from artist who don't fall into that determinate subgenre are not unheard of.
It's Popular, Now It Sucks!: Many fans of the genre (especially ones who are music enthusiasts) often cry foul when one of their favorite rappers becomes "too popular", and tend to ignore what tops the charts deliberately.
Lighter and Softer: Current form of hip-hop is accused of this. Not just for specific artists but the genre as a whole, according to some.
Magazine Decay: Some feel this way about hip-hop magazines, And not just The Source either.
Mean Character, Nice Actor: Most rappers and hip-hop artists are genuinely nice person in real life, despite many of them having incredibly mean, hateful, rude, arrogant and/or narcissistic lyrics to their songs.
Motor Mouth: Fairly common in the genre as a whole, especially among Midwestern artists (Bone Thugs-n-Harmony and Twista were the first major mainstream proponents of the "chopper" style, which emphasizes extremely fast and precise deliveries with no pauses and sharply enunciated words that tend to blur together). Eminem and Tech N9ne are the most famous purveyors of the style.
Murder Ballad
Murder Simulators: Rap music has been a popular scapegoat for almost 20 years. The media frenzy died down around the mid 90's, then in '99, Eminem made his debut and the controversy went right back into full swing. People often blame it (and video games) for teens' insensitivity to violence and for promoting stereotypes about women.
Music Is Politics: Discussed and invoked.
N-Word Privileges: Many black rappers use the word "nigga" constantly, White and Asian rappers do not. Hispanic rappers, oddly enough, do use the word however.
Though some white rappers either challenged this concept, or were caught using it in the past much to their embarrassment. White rapper Lil Wyte has used it numerous times in his songs and White/Asian rapper V-Nasty mistakenly thought she had these privileges in her earlier songs and faced a huge backlash over it, much to her embarrassment (though she still continues to use it to this day). While Iggy Azalea hasn't used the word herself in any of her songs, she's used the word in public saying that "it's OK because black people do it". In general though, most non-black (or hispanic) rappers won't touch this word with a ten-foot pole.
Pop-Culture Isolation: The genre at its core is mostly known by urban audiences
Protest Song: The genre produced a wide variety of these during the 90's. The biggest one arguably is " Fight The Power" by Public Enemy.
Public Medium Ignorance: Sometimes almost to a racist degree.
Rape as Drama: There have been rap songs talking about rape.
Sassy Black Woman: Some female emcees, and songs discussing said sassy women.
Screwed by the Network: See Deader Than Disco above.
Screw the Rules, I Have Money!: Rappers some time talks about bypassing rules due to having lots of money.
Shaking the Rump: Commonly done by women in a lot of rap videos, most especially if the song is about that particular body part.
Singer Namedrop: Almost every rap song has one.
Soapbox Sadie: Conscious hip-hop, and political rap.
Token Minority: Female and/or non-black rappers, at least in North America. In countries where Africans are non-existent or a tiny minority, the majority of rappers will be whatever is most prevalent.
Interestingly enough for most of The '90s female emcees was quite common. So much so that arguably they wouldn't count as a Token Minority. But after the turn of the millennium all that changed. This has been brought up in a lot of Hip Hop mags and blogs.
Female rap does seem to be entering something of a renaissance as of the early 2010s, though.
In Australia, talents like Diafrix, 1/6 and N'fa (who worked with Heath Ledger, believe it or not) head the very small number of African-Australian emcees. Indigenous hip-hop is another significant minority subculture.
Villain Protagonist: The viewpoint adopted in several songs.
Voice of the Resistance: Some see the genre as this, or is capable of being this.
A Wild Rapper Appears!: Crossovers with other genres have been around from the start, but have been growing in popularity since the 2000's.
Wolverine Publicity: Rappers tend to promote themselves by guest-starring in other artists' songs.

I really don't understand why people go to that assumption so quickly around here.

To guard against being duped. There's little downside. It can almost never truly be proven that someone isn't trolling. But if it is, one can just go "well it sure seemed like trolling so I was right to be suspicious". Same type of thinking that's at play with conspiracy theories.

look either he's a troll or the type of person to say

But the problem here is that one of my biggest hobbies is language-learning, so I probably would not be oblivious to the lyrics for long. It is hard to invest in an artist if you know there is a big risk of disappointment at some point.

tbf I didn't actually think the thread was a troll, just that the level of failure to read the room was so breathtaking that trolling seemed the kinder explanation

It puzzles me how ✖ and the other poster above find it weird that I would want to learn the language of world music I listen to. The global popularity of Irish traditional music in the 1990s led to significantly higher sales of Irish textbooks and more people in summer courses, because some people wanted to understand the songs they were hearing. I hear the same happened to some degree with Bulgarian after 4AD and Nonesuch released the Le Mystère des voix bulgares recordings and Bulgarian dance was taught across Europe and North America. No, I don’t think that I am any kind of "genius" by doing this, I'm just one of those people who enjoys the process of learning a language.

well if you're too modest to say it i will, you sir, are bordering on genius level in your appreciation of the arts, i doff my hat to you, sir, you are not just one of those people, you are one of the best people, a true friend of the arts

I get that my responses seem "longwinded" to some others here. For my part, I am disappointed that most posts on ILM consist of only a single line, when on some other music fora people write paragraph-long posts at least. Strangely, this has apparently always been the culture on this board, and isn't just a recent development due to so many people writing on their phones now instead of a proper keyboard.

So, with the overwhelming sentiment that I am unwelcome here for whatever reason, I guess I should move on and limit myself to those other fora. Thanks nevertheless to those who gave honest recommendations to my question – some of them do seem promising. Thanks also to those people who sent me private messages to apologize for the behavior of other posters in this thread. Sorry that I can't individually respond to thank you – there is no Reply button in the emails that ilxor.com sends out, and it is not clear to me how I can go look up a person’s profile based on their user name and send a PM to them there.

farewell forever and adieu, newcomer never to return! you will be fondly missed for the duration of your absence, long as it is sure to be not only in the annals of board events but all the more so in our hearts

[mic drop]

the lurkers support me in PMs!

(as a lurker, I do not support Melomane in PMs.)

don't let the door hit you.

or do. may knock some sense into you.

although your skull does appear to be especially dense, so it probably won't make any difference. and violence is never the answer.

so ya, anyway: kindly fuck off.

Melomane, I've sort of been wanting to defend you because I don't think there was anything wrong with your original request and people here can be harsh about certain viewpoints, so please take this as well-intentioned. I don't think you need to leave the board but my impression is that what is frustrating people might that you seem more concerned on this thread with repeatedly defending your right to ask the question than with engaging with the content of the abundant recommendations or reflecting on what your criteria actually are and where they come from - since they don't seem as simple as just "hip-hop without braggadocio"; my spouse listens to even less hip-hop than I do and we were able to easily brainstorm multiple examples of hip-hop songs that are not about braggadocio, weed, or life on the streets, many of which are on the thread. I don't think it shows very close listening at all to write off the entirety of To Pimp a Butterfly (which wasn't the album that won the Pulitzer btw, although maybe it should have been) as just being about these topics, for example. I don't even think "Walk This Way" is about those things, or De La Soul's "Eye Know", or Eminem's "Stan" - there are lots of well-known examples throughout the history of hip-hop. I don't think people here, many of whom are professional writers, would have any problem with paragraph-length posts if they showed more critical engagement with the material or self-reflection regarding your reactions to it.

Anyway, at least I know that Albiach poem now.