some anarchists would argue that "civilization" as you refer to it there is really "surplus with hierarchy" and as such is antithetical to anarchism, since as you touch on anarchy represents organization without hierarchy, in a rhizomatic form as opposed to an arborescent one.
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:22 (three years ago) link
The point of such language is to scrub it of all overt emotional content.
I don't agree, I think it's a deeply felt text, it does (disrespectfully) use jargon resembling that of the theory it's appropriating: "our task is to distinguish what is useful to our project from what is hopelessly lost in the abyss of the academy". I would apply your description to scientifically oriented marxist and anarchist theory and most of radical academia among other things
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:30 (three years ago) link
ohhhh yeah thats the stuff
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:32 (three years ago) link
Anarchy is for the young and able-bodied.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Sunday, June 14, 2020 12:37 PM (one hour ago)
actually there is a fair amount of discussion about ableism and many anarchist-aligned groups take that into account when organizing -- including the 8 hour meeting problem.
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:43 (three years ago) link
Write in: there is no such thing as anarchy.
― pomenitul, Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:45 (three years ago) link
One of the things that's interesting to me about the evolution of anarchism and anarchist organizations is the influence of technology workers and tech bros and how some of that philosophy and organization style has been integrated. I feel like I see a lot of that now (and in the past decade)
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:45 (three years ago) link
"civilization" as you refer to it there is really "surplus with hierarchy"
I purposely did not identify "civilization" as requiring hierarchy. In my view, civilization is tied to organization and to surplus, as you mention, with enough specialization to support the creation and continuation of small cities, providing markets for the distribution of specialized goods and services. It doesn't have to be a big city or a highly specialized economy to qualify. These are social and economic distinctions, not political ones.
But I realize "civilization" is one of those words which have been used as loaded guns aimed by colonialists at subjected peoples to justify their predations and appropriations.
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:52 (three years ago) link
I tried to cover that with: I Am Ambivalent Toward Anarchy - it's a cipher people pour their hopes and fears into
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:53 (three years ago) link
True, but I wouldn't call myself 'ambivalent' towards it.
― pomenitul, Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:57 (three years ago) link
Anarchy exists, in that it is an idea. The problem arises when you try to discover what that idea entails.
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 14 June 2020 20:59 (three years ago) link
there's an awful lot of documented theory and practice really, granted the shorthand "anarchy" as a reified image/concept is easily misinterpreted or overanalyzed but trust me actual work does happen and is boring and tedious a lot of the time.
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:03 (three years ago) link
I mean, I could Google for you maybe?
here's a good starter:
https://libcom.org/history/anarchy-anthology-emma-goldmans-mother-earth
and more modern stuff here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:05 (three years ago) link
^^ I really like both of these, nice bookends to the century
John Zerzan and Chellis Glendinning get more into the "first fence" theories, the Zerzan book is prob more influential but the Chellis book gets into actual healing imo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Primitive_and_Other_Essays
https://books.google.com/books/about/My_Name_is_Chellis_I_m_in_Recovery_from.html?id=T6kNAAAACAAJ
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link
"anarchy" as a reified image/concept is easily misinterpreted or overanalyzed but trust me actual work does happen and is boring and tedious a lot of the time.
you (excluding sleeve) would probably be amazed at the amount of time spent producing and editing spreadsheets and google forms in the name of anarchy
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link
irl lols, god yes plz link some here
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:11 (three years ago) link
is this the thread for misgivings about the agricultural revolution too
― Mordy, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
This thread can be anything you want it to be.
― pomenitul, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:23 (three years ago) link
xp - i mean, if you really want to see something look at the omni commons wiki
― sarahell, Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:24 (three years ago) link
sleeve or sarahell, leaving aside the complex question of transition from capitalist/hierarchical society to a realized anarchic society, how do you personally envision the settled forms that a fully realized anarchy is likely to manifest? Just some broad strokes so I can get at your idea of what anarchy would produce, it doesn't need to be book length. or is a fully-realized anarchic society beyond the scope of your goals?
― A is for (Aimless), Sunday, 14 June 2020 21:31 (three years ago) link
it's a cipher people pour their hopes and fears into
I don't think this is a necessarily ambivalent position - actually, the only way I could see it being ambivalent is if your take is something like "it is a cipher but maybe that's OK if it gives people an outlet for their hopes and fears"?
I voted "cannot endorse". Although it is most likely a cipher, even if it were possible to somehow reorganize all of humanity into e.g. a network of directly democratic collectives based around mass co-operation, I'm not convinced that I would prefer to live in that society.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Sunday, 14 June 2020 22:30 (three years ago) link
Where's the "I don't understand the question or the options" option?
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:01 (three years ago) link
lol well it is an Aimless poll
xps Aimless you can look at any intentional community for an abundance of examples, here are two:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freetown_Christiania
https://www.ic.org/directory/shannon-farm-community/
but as usual your question falls into the trap of requiring the respondent to jump through an increasingly-arbitrary set of white guy hoops that you will assuredly put into place, so spare me the next hoop plz. there are plenty of real world examples of how anarchist or anarchist-adjacent groups/practice/theory inform larger changes in society.
https://cbsaustin.com/news/local/cahoots-gains-national-attention-as-a-non-police-mental-health-response
https://around.uoregon.edu/oq/with-a-human-face-when-hoedads-walked-the-earth
skepticism about agriculture is OK but IMO hoarding/surplus is more of an issue, cf. Pollan's "Cooked" and the book "1491" I think cooking apes have always been pretty smart and "feeding a society" does not seem to require hierarchy?
I haven't read this other very interesting book but aiui the speculation here is that times of surplus naturally result in increased hierarchy:
https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674006911&content=reviews
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:04 (three years ago) link
i am def not trying to make anyone jump hoops -- i truly don't know what my answer is because idk how anarchy is being defined wrt this polltherefore idk how i feel about it and the options seem pretty limited to options for people who DO understand the questionwhich i don't :(
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:08 (three years ago) link
it's not super important or anything but i would like to understand
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:09 (three years ago) link
not you LL, that was directed at Aimless, my apologies for xposts
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:12 (three years ago) link
oh ok -- i don't have the time (or inclination honestly) to read a whole book to figure out what anarchy means acc to this questionthis must be how my students feel when i ask them to have an opinion on a topic they don't understand. it's bad!
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:14 (three years ago) link
I guess here's my take on the various options:
I Love Anarchy - it's as near to utopia as humanity can hope for- not many ppl think this, it's largely a strawman but the Bakuninist influence on millanialist (?) peasants and teenage idealists is undeniable
I Cautiously Endorse Anarchy - sure it's flawed, but the alternatives are worse- in my experience this is more realistic, ppl who actually do the work get it
I Cannot Endorse Anarchy - bad as current society is, anarchy is the wrong solution-show yr argument please, how is what we have worse? also yes it is really best to read at least one book on anarchist history before answering.
I Loathe Anarchy - civilization would end and life would be nasty, brutish and shortI Embrace Anarchy - it would end civilization forever, and that's fine by me- these both seems to be the same to be, basically nihilism
I Am Ambivalent Toward Anarchy - it's a cipher people pour their hopes and fears into- the "intellectual" or classic liberal position, as Lenin said there are decades where you fuck around and weeks when you find out, so let's find out
I Have No Opinion on Anarchy - and you can't force me to have one- joke option
Other - I have progressed beyond these simplistic choices; let me explain- possibly joke option but hey w/e
I am Purposely Voiding My Ballot- joke option
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:18 (three years ago) link
to be to me
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:19 (three years ago) link
Imo you have to show yer work that any potential solution will be MUCH better, cause no matter what the transitional period is gonna be grim
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:23 (three years ago) link
not "MUCH better" according to the question as written, it states "sure but the alternatives are worse" so no the burden of proof is not on anarchists here, it's gonna happen anyway as things break down
the transition is gonna be grim no matter what, that I agree with
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:34 (three years ago) link
to some degree my answer to these questions is informed by the work of Octavia Butler who memorably posits that our problem as a species is that we combine intelligence with hierarchical programming, i.e. Chomsky's quote of "now is the time for us to prove that intelligence is a worthwhile evolutionary trait"
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:36 (three years ago) link
and to be clear my personal take on anarchism is essentially based on communities/groups of 150 or less operating on a consensus-minus-one basis, apply up to scale as needed.
― sleeve, Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:37 (three years ago) link
not "MUCH better" according to the question as written
oh tbc I meant in terms of convincing ppl in meatspace
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:50 (three years ago) link
"show us the blueprints" is ideology, and basically an impossible task even for someone who does want to build a better society. how do we do this within the system? running experiments? writing really convincing pamphlets? who's doing the grading? what's better than what?
utopian anarchists/leftists* have a tendency to fall into these traps when they feel the need to demonstrate how their ideal world will offer the same or better standards of efficiency and productivity and progress and middle class comfort (and other euphemisms for ecocidal capitalism) as this one, just without the more flagrantly nasty bits
negativity is less work, it has nothing to offer, no need to please the custodians of an order that is defined against it
*(including/especially the "anti-utopian" scientific types)
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Sunday, 14 June 2020 23:57 (three years ago) link
how do we do this within the system? running experiments? writing really convincing pamphlets? who's doing the grading? what's better than what?
I think this is generally referred to as "making an effort" and "thinking through ideas"
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:07 (three years ago) link
negativity is less work
https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/sites/default/files/styles/tall_rectangle_custom_user_small_1x/public/images/contributor/adorno_360x450.jpg?itok=RD7qtNTP×tamp=1422048260
O RLY
― j., Monday, 15 June 2020 00:12 (three years ago) link
The method is simple: you arrive at the correct ethical conclusions and you put them into practice RIGHT NOW, no questions asked, no beating around the bush. Furthermore, everyone else is required to do the same immediately.
xp j. knows what's up.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 June 2020 00:13 (three years ago) link
-show yr argument please, how is what we have worse? also yes it is really best to read at least one book on anarchist history before answering.
I think hierarchical structures where people with a justifiable mandate make rules, people with expertise carry them out, and most people follow the rules can be more effective, efficient, and just than decentralized co-operative structures where people spend eight-hour meetings trying to achieve consensus on the word "guys". There are a lot of things I love in contemporary society and idk why I should trust that they would be preserved after a radical restructuring along those lines.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:14 (three years ago) link
Crass were awesome, though.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:44 (three years ago) link
Propagandhi and local volunteer initiatives (incl some I've been working with) prevent me from writing off anarchism completely
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:45 (three years ago) link
pfft sounds like school. literally why is this an obligation for me or anyone.
.
i never got into that dialectical stuff btw, seems like a bit of a heavy scene
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:52 (three years ago) link
I love when people point to some bullshit thing under capitalism and say look how bullshit this is clearly capitalism is the only option
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:54 (three years ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/GDijBhG.png
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 June 2020 00:54 (three years ago) link
Since compass memes are in vogue nowadays.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 June 2020 00:55 (three years ago) link
turns out i'm a right wing authoritarian
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Monday, 15 June 2020 00:57 (three years ago) link
Aimless you can look at any intentional community for an abundance of examples
I am well aware of intentional communities, cooperatives, communes, kibbutzes, the Friends Meeting, and other social groupings that sometimes choose to operate on a non-hierarchical basis. I admire many of them. These can and do exist comfortably within the context of much, much larger and more complex hierarchical societies and economies.
I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone. In my view there needs to be a 'halfway house' where workers allow some hierarchy of differing responsibility and decision-making for the group, based on specialization and demonstrated ability, but where ultimate control is flattened to include all affected workers equally.
As for the larger social units self-organizing, as in most communes and intentional communities, the history of such social enterprises shows how difficult this is even among groups that are self-selected, eager to try, and inclined to cooperation. The landscape is littered with failed communes. There's one just a few miles south of here: the Aurora Commune. Trying to apply consensus methods in society as a whole, made up as it is of everybody out there, including MAGA hatters and their temperamental kindred, seems daunting to me beyond imagining.
I know all this gets ample attention in the community of philosophical and theoretical anarchists, but ilx isn't that community. We are, however, open to ideas, though querulously.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 15 June 2020 01:00 (three years ago) link
I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone
A key point for me, and when the Hobbesian in me subsumes my better nature. I'm only too pleased to be educated, though, so if someone has lit to recommend...?
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 15 June 2020 01:04 (three years ago) link
I think this is generally referred to as "making an effort" and "thinking through ideas"pfft sounds like school. literally why is this an obligation for me or anyone.
well eventually other people will just stop listening if you make no effort to think through anything, but you seem to be pretty keen on not being listened to
― j., Monday, 15 June 2020 01:06 (three years ago) link
Aimless otm.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 15 June 2020 01:10 (three years ago) link
Querelously? What are you some kinda imperialism apologist wordsmith
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 01:14 (three years ago) link
Don't be such a querent.
― pomenitul, Monday, 15 June 2020 01:19 (three years ago) link
I can hang with some AnComms or Social-Ecologist types, tho I am by no means of that persuasion.
AnCaps and AnPrim types can gtfo
― Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Monday, 15 June 2020 01:41 (three years ago) link
ancaps....fuck I do not miss encountering those fuckers in "disruptive tech" circles
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 01:43 (three years ago) link
kingfish I'm glad yr here, but plz note that in spite of our many solidarities I am a big fan of the anarcho-primitivist analysis in terms of "how did we get here", but yeah in terms of "useful praxis going forward under late capitalism" it's not helpful and sometimes ends up in the nihilist deadend of e.g. Derrick Jensen which is ableist and agesist and transphobic and etc.
― sleeve, Monday, 15 June 2020 02:00 (three years ago) link
What are you some kinda imperialism apologist wordsmith
just a simple purveyor of the apt word
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 15 June 2020 02:40 (three years ago) link
Not taking part in this as Anarchists don't do voting.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 15 June 2020 10:23 (three years ago) link
US ilxors to begin their initiation into Anarchy by voiding their ballots in the November election.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 15 June 2020 10:28 (three years ago) link
lol
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 11:28 (three years ago) link
all the tools in the toolbox, man
― sleeve, Monday, 15 June 2020 14:12 (three years ago) link
I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone.
yeah, this is a lot of my "cautious endorsement" -- having seen this play out IRL -- and there is often "inaction" due to lack of consensus or lack of accountability that ends up making things break. ... then again I have also IRL experienced people with lack of knowledge and expertise being given positions of authority in our current society so ... idk
― sarahell, Monday, 15 June 2020 14:17 (three years ago) link
I think one of the key things is to have "working groups" that actually work.
― sarahell, Monday, 15 June 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link
I have also IRL experienced people with lack of knowledge and expertise being given positions of authority in our current society so ... idk
This could just be an argument for replacing those people, though.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 15 June 2020 14:56 (three years ago) link
It's a systemic problem
― sarahell, Monday, 15 June 2020 15:43 (three years ago) link
I guess the only way I could see anarchy as the solution to that problem is if you think that it discredits the idea of positions of authority altogether
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Monday, 15 June 2020 16:01 (three years ago) link
How the media portrays anarchists: Okay guys let’s smash some shit!Actual anarchists: Okay so it’s been 8 hours but we finally reached consensus on the use of the word “guys” in meetings
Actual anarchists: Okay so it’s been 8 hours but we finally reached consensus on the use of the word “guys” in meetings
I'm pretty sure both sets of self-described anarchists exist. But the first set should more properly be called nihilists who have been drawn to the label "anarchist" by the media's portrayal of anarchists.
The second set is familiar to me from my wife's descriptions of growing up in the Quaker meeting, which is even less hierarchical than the Quaker church. As she witnessed it, even the simplest decisions took forever because some members just liked to hear their own voices and enjoyed having a captive audience who were required to listen respectfully to their interminable dithering over minutiae.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 15 June 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link
Second set much more common ime
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 19:02 (three years ago) link
Tho "this asshole just wants to hear himself talk" sort of a universal plague from the boardroom to the classroom to branch meetings
― k*r*n koltrane (Simon H.), Monday, 15 June 2020 19:04 (three years ago) link
It's a systemic problem.
― budo jeru, Monday, 15 June 2020 19:17 (three years ago) link
I like the first set of anarchists they sound cool
― If you choose too long a name, your new display name will be truncated in (Left), Monday, 15 June 2020 19:19 (three years ago) link
There's no initiation rite, no fees, not even a clubhouse or a handshake. Just go out and smash things and you're in the club.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 15 June 2020 19:24 (three years ago) link
You don't even have to leave home. You could smash your own stuff!
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 15 June 2020 19:25 (three years ago) link
But in a consensus organization, they have the power to delay decisions indefinitely, where in a hierarchical or majority-based organization, they will eventually be kicked to the curb.
― A is for (Aimless), Monday, 15 June 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Thursday, 4 March 2021 00:01 (three years ago) link
https://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/history/anarchistspeechcartoon.PNG
― no (Left), Thursday, 4 March 2021 00:26 (three years ago) link
for the record the concept or state that i take the sheldon wolin excerpt in the OP to be describing is identified in its final two words, not in its use of “anarchy” near the beginning, tho an opponent of anarchy might argue they are identical. (hobbes himself of course had lived under one state, but even in my ambivalent opinion not the other.) while irl anarchic models seek to incorporate/address many conflicting needs and desires i don’t think they suffer from the specific epistemological chaos described, where there is simply no fundamental agreement on what is true or valued— participation in the process itself; a commitment to the refusal of force; the specifics of whatever system of consensus is used (possibly itself a kind of “irresistible power”? idk) would seem to preclude that. to say “yes but attempting to scale these models up would result in the political breakdown described” is of course valid but a distinct argument going beyond what’s in the excerpt. anyway i am hardly a hobbesian but i think about “like some macabre companion” a lot.
― difficult listening hour, Thursday, 4 March 2021 00:52 (three years ago) link
key consensus topic for today that took almost 30 minutes: shall we allocate costs per square foot of gross floor area or some other method and why
however, our process for choosing and acquiring meeting snacks is exceptionally efficient
― sarahell, Thursday, 4 March 2021 07:49 (three years ago) link
wait, the pettiest consensus topic that took disproportionately too long to resolve was: whether to use the sort function in excel to organize a spreadsheet or just duplicate the current spreadsheet and delete things we don't need
― sarahell, Thursday, 4 March 2021 07:52 (three years ago) link
I support the latter option
― I like signing up to dead sites (sleeve), Thursday, 4 March 2021 18:10 (three years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― System, Friday, 5 March 2021 00:01 (three years ago) link
let the record show 16-12 in favor with 16 abstentions
this is gonna take a while to reach a consensus on, should we get takeout?
― I like signing up to dead sites (sleeve), Friday, 5 March 2021 00:14 (three years ago) link
― sarahell, Monday, June 15, 2020 2:19 PM (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I have done paid organizing and I have done mutual aid and I am here to tell you this is otm. My kingdom for a working group that actually works.
― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Friday, 5 March 2021 00:27 (three years ago) link
should we get takeout?
First, we need to agree on this, then on what kind(s) to order, if any.
― Judge Roi Behan (Aimless), Friday, 5 March 2021 03:54 (three years ago) link
okay, has anyone updated the spreadsheet with the members and their dietary restrictions? That would be helpful in deciding
― sarahell, Friday, 5 March 2021 05:50 (three years ago) link
stuff about worker owned co-ops:
https://www.ztangi.org/report-on-a-worker-cooperative-closure/
a response to the first thing:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQlZnYogSFvFshZsxLYFGf7kcpUkRPWTT0xqAk2TzQ1MN9TimqE-DbDS1oE9HgAZAEItXRJ96b7xpLD/pub?urp=gmail_link
― sarahell, Thursday, 23 March 2023 19:35 (one year ago) link