Anarchy Poll and Discussion Thread

it's not super important or anything but i would like to understand

not you LL, that was directed at Aimless, my apologies for xposts

oh ok -- i don't have the time (or inclination honestly) to read a whole book to figure out what anarchy means acc to this question
this must be how my students feel when i ask them to have an opinion on a topic they don't understand. it's bad!

I guess here's my take on the various options:

I Love Anarchy - it's as near to utopia as humanity can hope for
- not many ppl think this, it's largely a strawman but the Bakuninist influence on millanialist (?) peasants and teenage idealists is undeniable

I Cautiously Endorse Anarchy - sure it's flawed, but the alternatives are worse
- in my experience this is more realistic, ppl who actually do the work get it

I Cannot Endorse Anarchy - bad as current society is, anarchy is the wrong solution
-show yr argument please, how is what we have worse? also yes it is really best to read at least one book on anarchist history before answering.

I Loathe Anarchy - civilization would end and life would be nasty, brutish and short
I Embrace Anarchy - it would end civilization forever, and that's fine by me
- these both seems to be the same to be, basically nihilism

I Am Ambivalent Toward Anarchy - it's a cipher people pour their hopes and fears into
- the "intellectual" or classic liberal position, as Lenin said there are decades where you fuck around and weeks when you find out, so let's find out

I Have No Opinion on Anarchy - and you can't force me to have one
- joke option

Other - I have progressed beyond these simplistic choices; let me explain
- possibly joke option but hey w/e

I am Purposely Voiding My Ballot
- joke option

to be to me

Imo you have to show yer work that any potential solution will be MUCH better, cause no matter what the transitional period is gonna be grim

not "MUCH better" according to the question as written, it states "sure but the alternatives are worse" so no the burden of proof is not on anarchists here, it's gonna happen anyway as things break down

the transition is gonna be grim no matter what, that I agree with

to some degree my answer to these questions is informed by the work of Octavia Butler who memorably posits that our problem as a species is that we combine intelligence with hierarchical programming, i.e. Chomsky's quote of "now is the time for us to prove that intelligence is a worthwhile evolutionary trait"

and to be clear my personal take on anarchism is essentially based on communities/groups of 150 or less operating on a consensus-minus-one basis, apply up to scale as needed.

not "MUCH better" according to the question as written

oh tbc I meant in terms of convincing ppl in meatspace

"show us the blueprints" is ideology, and basically an impossible task even for someone who does want to build a better society. how do we do this within the system? running experiments? writing really convincing pamphlets? who's doing the grading? what's better than what?

utopian anarchists/leftists* have a tendency to fall into these traps when they feel the need to demonstrate how their ideal world will offer the same or better standards of efficiency and productivity and progress and middle class comfort (and other euphemisms for ecocidal capitalism) as this one, just without the more flagrantly nasty bits

negativity is less work, it has nothing to offer, no need to please the custodians of an order that is defined against it

*(including/especially the "anti-utopian" scientific types)

how do we do this within the system? running experiments? writing really convincing pamphlets? who's doing the grading? what's better than what?

I think this is generally referred to as "making an effort" and "thinking through ideas"

negativity is less work

https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/sites/default/files/styles/tall_rectangle_custom_user_small_1x/public/images/contributor/adorno_360x450.jpg?itok=RD7qtNTP×tamp=1422048260

O RLY

The method is simple: you arrive at the correct ethical conclusions and you put them into practice RIGHT NOW, no questions asked, no beating around the bush. Furthermore, everyone else is required to do the same immediately.

xp j. knows what's up.

-show yr argument please, how is what we have worse? also yes it is really best to read at least one book on anarchist history before answering.

I think hierarchical structures where people with a justifiable mandate make rules, people with expertise carry them out, and most people follow the rules can be more effective, efficient, and just than decentralized co-operative structures where people spend eight-hour meetings trying to achieve consensus on the word "guys". There are a lot of things I love in contemporary society and idk why I should trust that they would be preserved after a radical restructuring along those lines.

Crass were awesome, though.

Propagandhi and local volunteer initiatives (incl some I've been working with) prevent me from writing off anarchism completely

I think this is generally referred to as "making an effort" and "thinking through ideas"

pfft sounds like school. literally why is this an obligation for me or anyone.

.

i never got into that dialectical stuff btw, seems like a bit of a heavy scene

I love when people point to some bullshit thing under capitalism and say look how bullshit this is clearly capitalism is the only option

https://i.imgur.com/GDijBhG.png

Since compass memes are in vogue nowadays.

turns out i'm a right wing authoritarian

Aimless you can look at any intentional community for an abundance of examples

I am well aware of intentional communities, cooperatives, communes, kibbutzes, the Friends Meeting, and other social groupings that sometimes choose to operate on a non-hierarchical basis. I admire many of them. These can and do exist comfortably within the context of much, much larger and more complex hierarchical societies and economies.

I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone. In my view there needs to be a 'halfway house' where workers allow some hierarchy of differing responsibility and decision-making for the group, based on specialization and demonstrated ability, but where ultimate control is flattened to include all affected workers equally.

As for the larger social units self-organizing, as in most communes and intentional communities, the history of such social enterprises shows how difficult this is even among groups that are self-selected, eager to try, and inclined to cooperation. The landscape is littered with failed communes. There's one just a few miles south of here: the Aurora Commune. Trying to apply consensus methods in society as a whole, made up as it is of everybody out there, including MAGA hatters and their temperamental kindred, seems daunting to me beyond imagining.

I know all this gets ample attention in the community of philosophical and theoretical anarchists, but ilx isn't that community. We are, however, open to ideas, though querulously.

I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone

A key point for me, and when the Hobbesian in me subsumes my better nature. I'm only too pleased to be educated, though, so if someone has lit to recommend...?

I think this is generally referred to as "making an effort" and "thinking through ideas"
pfft sounds like school. literally why is this an obligation for me or anyone.

well eventually other people will just stop listening if you make no effort to think through anything, but you seem to be pretty keen on not being listened to

Aimless otm.

Querelously? What are you some kinda imperialism apologist wordsmith

Don't be such a querent.

I can hang with some AnComms or Social-Ecologist types, tho I am by no means of that persuasion.

AnCaps and AnPrim types can gtfo

ancaps....fuck I do not miss encountering those fuckers in "disruptive tech" circles

kingfish I'm glad yr here, but plz note that in spite of our many solidarities I am a big fan of the anarcho-primitivist analysis in terms of "how did we get here", but yeah in terms of "useful praxis going forward under late capitalism" it's not helpful and sometimes ends up in the nihilist deadend of e.g. Derrick Jensen which is ableist and agesist and transphobic and etc.

What are you some kinda imperialism apologist wordsmith

just a simple purveyor of the apt word

Not taking part in this as Anarchists don't do voting.

US ilxors to begin their initiation into Anarchy by voiding their ballots in the November election.

lol

all the tools in the toolbox, man

I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone.

yeah, this is a lot of my "cautious endorsement" -- having seen this play out IRL -- and there is often "inaction" due to lack of consensus or lack of accountability that ends up making things break. ... then again I have also IRL experienced people with lack of knowledge and expertise being given positions of authority in our current society so ... idk

I think one of the key things is to have "working groups" that actually work.

I have also IRL experienced people with lack of knowledge and expertise being given positions of authority in our current society so ... idk

This could just be an argument for replacing those people, though.

This could just be an argument for replacing those people, though.

It's a systemic problem

I guess the only way I could see anarchy as the solution to that problem is if you think that it discredits the idea of positions of authority altogether

How the media portrays anarchists: Okay guys let’s smash some shit!

Actual anarchists: Okay so it’s been 8 hours but we finally reached consensus on the use of the word “guys” in meetings

I'm pretty sure both sets of self-described anarchists exist. But the first set should more properly be called nihilists who have been drawn to the label "anarchist" by the media's portrayal of anarchists.

The second set is familiar to me from my wife's descriptions of growing up in the Quaker meeting, which is even less hierarchical than the Quaker church. As she witnessed it, even the simplest decisions took forever because some members just liked to hear their own voices and enjoyed having a captive audience who were required to listen respectfully to their interminable dithering over minutiae.

Second set much more common ime

Tho "this asshole just wants to hear himself talk" sort of a universal plague from the boardroom to the classroom to branch meetings

It's a systemic problem.

I like the first set of anarchists they sound cool

There's no initiation rite, no fees, not even a clubhouse or a handshake. Just go out and smash things and you're in the club.

You don't even have to leave home. You could smash your own stuff!

Tho "this asshole just wants to hear himself talk" sort of a universal plague from the boardroom to the classroom to branch meetings

But in a consensus organization, they have the power to delay decisions indefinitely, where in a hierarchical or majority-based organization, they will eventually be kicked to the curb.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

https://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/history/anarchistspeechcartoon.PNG

for the record the concept or state that i take the sheldon wolin excerpt in the OP to be describing is identified in its final two words, not in its use of “anarchy” near the beginning, tho an opponent of anarchy might argue they are identical. (hobbes himself of course had lived under one state, but even in my ambivalent opinion not the other.) while irl anarchic models seek to incorporate/address many conflicting needs and desires i don’t think they suffer from the specific epistemological chaos described, where there is simply no fundamental agreement on what is true or valued— participation in the process itself; a commitment to the refusal of force; the specifics of whatever system of consensus is used (possibly itself a kind of “irresistible power”? idk) would seem to preclude that. to say “yes but attempting to scale these models up would result in the political breakdown described” is of course valid but a distinct argument going beyond what’s in the excerpt. anyway i am hardly a hobbesian but i think about “like some macabre companion” a lot.

key consensus topic for today that took almost 30 minutes: shall we allocate costs per square foot of gross floor area or some other method and why

however, our process for choosing and acquiring meeting snacks is exceptionally efficient

wait, the pettiest consensus topic that took disproportionately too long to resolve was: whether to use the sort function in excel to organize a spreadsheet or just duplicate the current spreadsheet and delete things we don't need

I support the latter option

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

let the record show 16-12 in favor with 16 abstentions

this is gonna take a while to reach a consensus on, should we get takeout?

I think one of the key things is to have "working groups" that actually work.

― sarahell, Monday, June 15, 2020 2:19 PM (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have done paid organizing and I have done mutual aid and I am here to tell you this is otm. My kingdom for a working group that actually works.

should we get takeout?

First, we need to agree on this, then on what kind(s) to order, if any.

okay, has anyone updated the spreadsheet with the members and their dietary restrictions? That would be helpful in deciding

stuff about worker owned co-ops:

https://www.ztangi.org/report-on-a-worker-cooperative-closure/

a response to the first thing:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQlZnYogSFvFshZsxLYFGf7kcpUkRPWTT0xqAk2TzQ1MN9TimqE-DbDS1oE9HgAZAEItXRJ96b7xpLD/pub?urp=gmail_link