Anarchy Poll and Discussion Thread

kingfish I'm glad yr here, but plz note that in spite of our many solidarities I am a big fan of the anarcho-primitivist analysis in terms of "how did we get here", but yeah in terms of "useful praxis going forward under late capitalism" it's not helpful and sometimes ends up in the nihilist deadend of e.g. Derrick Jensen which is ableist and agesist and transphobic and etc.

What are you some kinda imperialism apologist wordsmith

just a simple purveyor of the apt word

Not taking part in this as Anarchists don't do voting.

US ilxors to begin their initiation into Anarchy by voiding their ballots in the November election.

lol

all the tools in the toolbox, man

I have more trouble envisioning applying self-organizing consensus being extended to all aspects of an economy, largely because of the asymmetries of knowledge and expertise in large groups do not fit well with decision and action by consensus alone.

yeah, this is a lot of my "cautious endorsement" -- having seen this play out IRL -- and there is often "inaction" due to lack of consensus or lack of accountability that ends up making things break. ... then again I have also IRL experienced people with lack of knowledge and expertise being given positions of authority in our current society so ... idk

I think one of the key things is to have "working groups" that actually work.

I have also IRL experienced people with lack of knowledge and expertise being given positions of authority in our current society so ... idk

This could just be an argument for replacing those people, though.

This could just be an argument for replacing those people, though.

It's a systemic problem

I guess the only way I could see anarchy as the solution to that problem is if you think that it discredits the idea of positions of authority altogether

How the media portrays anarchists: Okay guys let’s smash some shit!

Actual anarchists: Okay so it’s been 8 hours but we finally reached consensus on the use of the word “guys” in meetings

I'm pretty sure both sets of self-described anarchists exist. But the first set should more properly be called nihilists who have been drawn to the label "anarchist" by the media's portrayal of anarchists.

The second set is familiar to me from my wife's descriptions of growing up in the Quaker meeting, which is even less hierarchical than the Quaker church. As she witnessed it, even the simplest decisions took forever because some members just liked to hear their own voices and enjoyed having a captive audience who were required to listen respectfully to their interminable dithering over minutiae.

Second set much more common ime

Tho "this asshole just wants to hear himself talk" sort of a universal plague from the boardroom to the classroom to branch meetings

It's a systemic problem.

I like the first set of anarchists they sound cool

There's no initiation rite, no fees, not even a clubhouse or a handshake. Just go out and smash things and you're in the club.

You don't even have to leave home. You could smash your own stuff!

Tho "this asshole just wants to hear himself talk" sort of a universal plague from the boardroom to the classroom to branch meetings

But in a consensus organization, they have the power to delay decisions indefinitely, where in a hierarchical or majority-based organization, they will eventually be kicked to the curb.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

https://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/history/anarchistspeechcartoon.PNG

for the record the concept or state that i take the sheldon wolin excerpt in the OP to be describing is identified in its final two words, not in its use of “anarchy” near the beginning, tho an opponent of anarchy might argue they are identical. (hobbes himself of course had lived under one state, but even in my ambivalent opinion not the other.) while irl anarchic models seek to incorporate/address many conflicting needs and desires i don’t think they suffer from the specific epistemological chaos described, where there is simply no fundamental agreement on what is true or valued— participation in the process itself; a commitment to the refusal of force; the specifics of whatever system of consensus is used (possibly itself a kind of “irresistible power”? idk) would seem to preclude that. to say “yes but attempting to scale these models up would result in the political breakdown described” is of course valid but a distinct argument going beyond what’s in the excerpt. anyway i am hardly a hobbesian but i think about “like some macabre companion” a lot.

key consensus topic for today that took almost 30 minutes: shall we allocate costs per square foot of gross floor area or some other method and why

however, our process for choosing and acquiring meeting snacks is exceptionally efficient

wait, the pettiest consensus topic that took disproportionately too long to resolve was: whether to use the sort function in excel to organize a spreadsheet or just duplicate the current spreadsheet and delete things we don't need

I support the latter option

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

let the record show 16-12 in favor with 16 abstentions

this is gonna take a while to reach a consensus on, should we get takeout?

I think one of the key things is to have "working groups" that actually work.

― sarahell, Monday, June 15, 2020 2:19 PM (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have done paid organizing and I have done mutual aid and I am here to tell you this is otm. My kingdom for a working group that actually works.

should we get takeout?

First, we need to agree on this, then on what kind(s) to order, if any.

okay, has anyone updated the spreadsheet with the members and their dietary restrictions? That would be helpful in deciding

stuff about worker owned co-ops:

https://www.ztangi.org/report-on-a-worker-cooperative-closure/

a response to the first thing:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vQlZnYogSFvFshZsxLYFGf7kcpUkRPWTT0xqAk2TzQ1MN9TimqE-DbDS1oE9HgAZAEItXRJ96b7xpLD/pub?urp=gmail_link