outbreak! (ebola, sars, coronavirus, etc)

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I can cross three or four state lines in a 20-minute drive.

Got a cobra snake for a necktie?

Barry "Fatha" Hines (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 26 June 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link

nice

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 26 June 2020 20:47 (three years ago) link

Yes. Phase three should be "we're doing everything outside for now." https://t.co/W2ltjcFAKE

— 'Weird Alex' Pareene (@pareene) June 26, 2020

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Friday, 26 June 2020 20:52 (three years ago) link

Thank you! That helps a lot. A follow up: those numbers seem to hinge mathematically/scientifically on a survey of the broader, general population where the vast majority of people have likely not had or even been exposed to Covid. But if you just tested people who had or suspected they had Covid, a sort of self-selecting (if not statistically sound, scientifically speaking) pool, wouldn't the PPV be higher? Maybe it isn't useful in terms of applicable data that can then be extrapolated across populations, but it seems that it could be useful for that specific demographic.

Right. A test with a high FPR becomes less and less useful if population prevalence goes down. Conversely, you can get useful information from a high FPR test if you restrict its use to populations who are more likely to have the condition. "Useful information" here means "you can maximize the number of people who really do have the condition".

The PPV is probably better than 50% in practice because the prevalence of antibodies *among people taking the test* is higher than the background population prevalence (you only take the test right now if you have reason to think you have had covid). But the corollary of that is: screening everyone for antibodies is not useful.

That is, you don't screen young people for diseases associated with old age, but if you limited screenings *exclusively* to old people, then would the PPV for Old Age Illness X be higher? Does it/can it work that way?

Exactly. The PPV of screening 100% of the population for breast cancer every year is very low because most people don't have breast cancer. But if you only screen women then PPV goes up. And if you only screen women over X it goes up more.

So in the case of the strep rapid test, it's hitting 98-99% specificity, which is good, but does't seem *that* much better than the 95% specificity of the Covid antibody test, and the sensitivity of both tests seem relatively similar (around 90%). Which may be why I'd heard that the Covid test, like strep, is more likely to yield false negatives than false positives, even if the false positive rate is still statistically something to be aware of.

Well, it depends on your perspective. If you're a health official, you're thinking in terms of testing a bunch of people. In that situation, the covid antibody test is more likely to yield false positives (in the sense that it's a more common outcome than a false negative) simply because most people don't have the antibody, so they logically can't have a false negative! There's just fewer opportuntities for the test to screw up in the sense of missing a case. There are lots of opportunities for it to screw up by seeing antibodies where they don't exist.

If you're a individual person deciding whether to have a test it's different. Absent other information, there's a 5% chance you have the antibodies. Before you take the test, there are two ways the test can go wrong for you: FP and FN. The probability of a FP is 95% (you're negative) * 5% (the test screws up) = 4.7%. The probability of a FN is 5% (you're positive) * 10% (the test screws up) = 0.5%. So yes, the probability of a false negative for a particular person who hasn't yet taken the test is higher. But once you take the test you can rule one of these two out so the relative probability of these two outcomes isn't super important.

One last point: it might not seem it, but 99% specificity is *a lot* better than 95% specificity. Think in terms of the FPR. That's 1% vs 5%. It's five times better! (This is why I like FPR and FNR btw, rather than specificity and sensitivity.)

You know how you hear that machine learning has gotten really good recently? It's a bunch of tasks we used to get right 95-97% of the time. Now it's 99%. That is a *HUGE* improvement and has qualitatively changed how useful ML is, even though 99 doesn't seem that much bigger than 95.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 26 June 2020 21:03 (three years ago) link

* "Useful information" here means "you can maximize the number of people who really do have the condition that you find".

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 26 June 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link

Google searches related to loss of smell, past seven days https://t.co/rCeGQJmQo9 pic.twitter.com/aj8RaKkswW

— Christopher Ingraham (@_cingraham) June 26, 2020

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, 26 June 2020 21:19 (three years ago) link

oof

Nhex, Friday, 26 June 2020 21:42 (three years ago) link

Dang

Joey Corona (Euler), Friday, 26 June 2020 22:04 (three years ago) link

47,000+ new cases today

Dan S, Saturday, 27 June 2020 01:49 (three years ago) link

in the US

Dan S, Saturday, 27 June 2020 01:50 (three years ago) link

the republican governors set up a buffet table for the virus

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 27 June 2020 02:07 (three years ago) link

just 3 and a half months ago, we had 949 cases and 30 deaths. this thing has moved at exactly the speed expected by statisticians,virologists, and epidemiologists, and half the country doesn't give a shit and screams fake news.

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 June 2020 03:59 (three years ago) link

But some of us scream 5G

Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Saturday, 27 June 2020 04:27 (three years ago) link

I just went onto the DW Blackstone asshole's FB, where he posts mostly publicly. He's the dude who just created the meme about being OSHA certified and therefore qualified to tell us masks are bullshit.

It's been debunked (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/effectiveness-face-masks/), and within 5 minutes of me telling him this, he blocked me minutes later.

but hey, there's the Snopes link for your friends and family who are suckered by it. Do the thing that I do, which is decoupling the supporting articles from Snopes and attaching them individually and summarizing their content, since some people are now programmed to say Snopes is "fake news".

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 June 2020 04:30 (three years ago) link

It's deeply unfair that people who've taken this seriously and the people they love will pay in equal measure but humanity seems to be implicitly-yet-strongly insisting that their ranks need to be thinned so I guess they're gonna get what they've been incoherently screaming for.

Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Saturday, 27 June 2020 04:39 (three years ago) link

decoupling the supporting articles from Snopes and attaching them individually and summarizing their content, since some people are now programmed to say Snopes is "fake news".

sadly I gotta take this down as a note, good call

sleeve, Saturday, 27 June 2020 05:12 (three years ago) link

(and I'm dealing with the opposite end, the hippie anti-vaxxers who watch Plandemic)

sleeve, Saturday, 27 June 2020 05:13 (three years ago) link

yeah, that's the problem, this kind of idiocy transcends party lines, as whereas my FB feed could be considered an outright liberal bubble, nonetheless there are several of these "vaccines are poison", "COVID is a lie!" or "the numbers are fake!" or "masks are stupid!" fucks on my wall.

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 June 2020 05:17 (three years ago) link

RIP UK

Well done this man!! 👏👏
One of the country’s biggest pub chains has said it will not force drinkers to hand over their contact details – fearing the policy will put them off.
Ralph Findlay (CEO) of #Marston’s is also refusing to make staff wear maskshttps://t.co/JlBzlXcgFc

— Charlotte Gracias (@Charlotte3003G) June 27, 2020

chonky floof (groovypanda), Saturday, 27 June 2020 10:34 (three years ago) link

what could possibly go wrong

scampo, foggy and clegg (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 27 June 2020 11:32 (three years ago) link

#Antilockdown #NoSocialDistancing #Justice #Geopolitics, #economics #political #freespeech, #antiwar #Palestine #Syria #Yemen #Assange #Venezuela #Iran #MUFC

koogs, Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:03 (three years ago) link

same

scampo, foggy and clegg (bizarro gazzara), Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:39 (three years ago) link

ffs, having been ultra-careful about keeping a distance from people for the last three months we're all going to have to be even more careful, due to dimwit shitfucks piling into pubs for drinkypoos and spreading the not-quite-in-the-2nd-wave-but-will-be-soon megavirus. Anyone else trying not to think about where the world will be in a year's time?

the bournemouth supremacy (Matt #2), Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:44 (three years ago) link

I think about that too much, tbh

stet, Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:45 (three years ago) link

lol, u think there will still be a world in a year's time

Well, that's a fine howdy adieu! (Old Lunch), Saturday, 27 June 2020 12:49 (three years ago) link

terrific A1 article about asymptomatic transmission:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/27/world/europe/coronavirus-spread-asymptomatic.html

Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Saturday, 27 June 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link

What a great article. That's one of the best if not the best accounts I've seen so far of how this got out of control in the west. It's clear that a lot of illness and death could have been prevented, but it's not clear if, given human flaws (ego, incompetence, confusion, misunderstandings, not to mention different standards of scientific certainty), it *could* have been prevented. There were so many ways for things to go wrong, and if just one of the links in the chain went wonky, the whole thing falls apart. In this case, several links in the chain went wonky in multiple places. And ironically, one of the umbrella organizations there to keep things consistent and clear, the WHO, went wonkiest of all.

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 27 June 2020 14:05 (three years ago) link

I think the biggest mistake we made is telling Americans that wearing masks is to protect other people. Know your audience!

— Jenni Konner (@JenniKonner) June 26, 2020

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 27 June 2020 14:14 (three years ago) link

I think the biggest mistake we made is telling Americans that wearing masks is to protect other people. Know your audience!

specific fry such as scampo (||||||||), Saturday, 27 June 2020 14:19 (three years ago) link

consider the source

rob, Saturday, 27 June 2020 15:14 (three years ago) link

BREAKING: Another Record for Florida. 9585 new COVID-19 cases overnight

— Daniel Uhlfelder (@DWUhlfelderLaw) June 27, 2020

Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 27 June 2020 16:20 (three years ago) link

Can someone liberate that nyt article
The adding a period to the url trick doesn’t seem to work anymore

gnarled and turbid sinuses (Jon not Jon), Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:18 (three years ago) link

Texas Republican Rep. Louie Gohmert has no plans to slow the spread of the coronavirus personally by wearing a mask, even as infection rates reach catastrophic levels in his home state.

Gohmert, who is 66-years-old, regularly attends sessions on the House floor sans-mask. The lawmaker told CNN on Friday that he has no intention of wearing one unless he contracts the deadly virus, despite the fact that health experts and even fellow Republicans are urging Americans to wear masks in public to combat the spread.

“I don’t have the coronavirus, turns out as of yesterday I’ve never had it. But if I get it, you’ll never see me without a mask,” he said.

When asked about concerns about asymptomatic spread, Gohmert dug his heels in: “But I keep being tested and I don’t have it. So I’m not afraid of you, but if I get it I’ll wear a mask.”

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:31 (three years ago) link

I keep being tested and I don’t have it.

Gee. Let's all follow this sensible plan. Oh, wait. There are still restrictions on who can get tested even once here. Less than 20% of my state's residents have ever been tested for either the virus or antibodies.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:39 (three years ago) link

what's sad is that this barely cracks gohmert's top 5 stupid moments

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Saturday, 27 June 2020 17:43 (three years ago) link

NYT article above:

Symptomless transmission makes the coronavirus far harder to fight. But health officials dismissed the risk for months, pushing misleading and contradictory claims in the face of mounting evidence.
By Matt Apuzzo, Selam Gebrekidan and David D. Kirkpatrick
June 27, 2020

MUNICH — Dr. Camilla Rothe was about to leave for dinner when the government laboratory called with the surprising test result. Positive. It was Jan. 27. She had just discovered Germany’s first case of the new coronavirus.

But the diagnosis made no sense. Her patient, a businessman from a nearby auto parts company, could have been infected by only one person: a colleague visiting from China. And that colleague should not have been contagious.

The visitor had seemed perfectly healthy during her stay in Germany. No coughing or sneezing, no signs of fatigue or fever during two days of long meetings. She told colleagues that she had started feeling ill after the flight back to China. Days later, she tested positive for the coronavirus.

Scientists at the time believed that only people with symptoms could spread the coronavirus. They assumed it acted like its genetic cousin, SARS.

“People who know much more about coronaviruses than I do were absolutely sure,” recalled Dr. Rothe, an infectious disease specialist at Munich University Hospital.

But if the experts were wrong, if the virus could spread from seemingly healthy carriers or people who had not yet developed symptoms, the ramifications were potentially catastrophic. Public-awareness campaigns, airport screening and stay-home-if-you’re sick policies might not stop it. More aggressive measures might be required — ordering healthy people to wear masks, for instance, or restricting international travel.

Dr. Rothe and her colleagues were among the first to warn the world. But even as evidence accumulated from other scientists, leading health officials expressed unwavering confidence that symptomless spreading was not important.

In the days and weeks to come, politicians, public health officials and rival academics disparaged or ignored the Munich team. Some actively worked to undermine the warnings at a crucial moment, as the disease was spreading unnoticed in French churches, Italian soccer stadiums and Austrian ski bars. A cruise ship, the Diamond Princess, would become a deadly harbinger of symptomless spreading.

Interviews with doctors and public health officials in more than a dozen countries show that for two crucial months — and in the face of mounting genetic evidence — Western health officials and political leaders played down or denied the risk of symptomless spreading. Leading health agencies including the World Health Organization and the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control provided contradictory and sometimes misleading advice. A crucial public health discussion devolved into a semantic debate over what to call infected people without clear symptoms.

The two-month delay was a product of faulty scientific assumptions, academic rivalries and, perhaps most important, a reluctance to accept that containing the virus would take drastic measures. The resistance to emerging evidence was one part of the world’s sluggish response to the virus.

It is impossible to calculate the human toll of that delay, but models suggest that earlier, aggressive action might have saved tens of thousands of lives. Countries like Singapore and Australia, which used testing and contact-tracing and moved swiftly to quarantine seemingly healthy travelers, fared far better than those that did not.

It is now widely accepted that seemingly healthy people can spread the virus, though uncertainty remains over how much they have contributed to the pandemic. Though estimates vary, models using data from Hong Kong, Singapore and China suggest that 30 to 60 percent of spreading occurs when people have no symptoms.

“This was, I think, a very simple truth,” Dr. Rothe said. “I was surprised that it would cause such a storm. I can’t explain it.”

Even now, with more than 9 million cases around the world, and a death toll approaching 500,000, Covid-19 remains an unsolved riddle. It is too soon to know whether the worst has passed, or if a second global wave of infections is about to crash down. But it is clear that an array of countries, from secretive regimes to overconfident democracies, have fumbled their response, misjudged the virus and ignored their own emergency plans.

It is also painfully clear that time was a critical commodity in curbing the virus — and that too much of it was wasted.

On the night of Germany’s first positive test, the virus had seemed far away. Fewer than 100 fatalities had been reported worldwide. Italy, which would become Europe’s ground zero, would not record its first cases for another three days.

A few reports out of China had already suggested the possibility of symptomless spreading. But nobody had proved it could happen.

That night, Dr. Rothe tapped out an email to a few dozen doctors and public health officials.

“Infections can actually be transmitted during the incubation period,” she wrote.

Three more employees from the auto parts company, Webasto, tested positive the following day. Their symptoms were so mild that, normally, it’s likely that none would have been flagged for testing, or have thought to stay at home.

Dr. Rothe decided she had to sound the alarm. Her boss, Dr. Michael Hoelscher, dashed off an email to The New England Journal of Medicine. “We believe that this observation is of utmost importance,” he wrote.

Editors responded immediately. How soon could they see the paper?

The next morning, Jan. 30, public health officials interviewed the Chinese businesswoman by phone. Hospitalized in Shanghai, she explained that she’d started feeling sick on the flight home. Looking back, maybe she’d had some mild aches or fatigue, but she had chalked them up to a long day of travel.

“From her perspective, she was not ill,” said Nadine Schian, a Webasto spokeswoman who was on the call. “She said, ‘OK, I felt tired. But I’ve been in Germany a lot of times before and I always have jet lag.’”

When the health officials described the call, Dr. Rothe and Dr. Hoelscher quickly finished and submitted their article. Dr. Rothe did not talk to the patient herself but said she relied on the health authority summary.

Within hours, it was online. It was a modest clinical observation at a key time. Just days earlier, the World Health Organization had said it needed more information about this very topic.

What the authors did not know, however, was that in a suburb 20 minutes away, another group of doctors had also been rushing to publish a report. Neither knew what the other was working on, a seemingly small academic rift that would have global implications.

The second group was made up of officials with the Bavarian health authority and Germany’s national health agency, known as the Robert Koch Institute. Inside a suburban office, doctors unfurled mural paper and traced infection routes using colored pens.

Their team, led by the Bavarian epidemiologist Dr. Merle Böhmer, submitted an article to The Lancet, another premier medical journal. But the Munich hospital group had scooped them by three hours. Dr. Böhmer said her team’s article, which went unpublished as a result, had reached similar conclusions but worded them slightly differently.

Dr. Rothe had written that patients appeared to be contagious before the onset of any symptoms. The government team had written that patients appeared to be contagious before the onset of full symptoms — at a time when symptoms were so mild that people might not even recognize them.

The Chinese woman, for example, had woken up in the middle of the night feeling jet-lagged. Wanting to be sharp for her meetings, she took a Chinese medicine called 999 — containing the equivalent of a Tylenol tablet — and went back to bed.

Perhaps that had masked a mild fever? Perhaps her jet lag was actually fatigue? She had reached for a shawl during a meeting. Maybe that was a sign of chills?

After two lengthy phone calls with the woman, doctors at the Robert Koch Institute were convinced that she had simply failed to recognize her symptoms. They wrote to the editor of The New England Journal of Medicine, casting doubt on Dr. Rothe’s findings.

Editors there decided that the dispute amounted to hairsplitting. If it took a lengthy interview to identify symptoms, how could anyone be expected to do it in the real world?

“The question was whether she had something consistent with Covid-19 or that anyone would have recognized at the time was Covid-19,” said Dr. Eric Rubin, the journal’s editor.

“The answer seemed to be no.”

The journal did not publish the letter. But that would not be the end of it.

That weekend, Andreas Zapf, the head of the Bavarian health authority, called Dr. Hoelscher of the Munich clinic. “Look, the people in Berlin are very angry about your publication,” Dr. Zapf said, according to Dr. Hoelscher.

He suggested changing the wording of Dr. Rothe’s report and replacing her name with those of members of the government task force, Dr. Hoelscher said. He refused.

The health agency would not discuss the phone call.

Until then, Dr. Hoelscher said, their report had seemed straightforward. Now it was clear: “Politically, this was a major, major issue.”

On Monday, Feb. 3, the journal Science published an article calling Dr. Rothe’s report “flawed.” Science reported that the Robert Koch Institute had written to the New England Journal to dispute her findings and correct an error.

The Robert Koch Institute declined repeated interview requests over several weeks and did not answer written questions.

Dr. Rothe’s report quickly became a symbol of rushed research. Scientists said she should have talked to the Chinese patient herself before publishing, and that the omission had undermined her team’s work. On Twitter, she and her colleagues were disparaged by scientists and armchair experts alike.

“It broke over us like a complete tsunami,” Dr. Hoelscher said.

The controversy also overshadowed another crucial development out of Munich.

The next morning, Dr. Clemens-Martin Wendtner made a startling announcement. Dr. Wendtner was overseeing treatment of Munich’s Covid-19 patients — there were eight now — and had taken swabs from each.

He discovered the virus in the nose and throat at much higher levels, and far earlier, than had been observed in SARS patients. That meant it probably could spread before people knew they were sick.

But the Science story drowned that news out. If Dr. Rothe’s paper had implied that governments might need to do more against Covid-19, the pushback from the Robert Koch Institute was an implicit defense of the conventional thinking.

Sweden’s public health agency declared that Dr. Rothe’s report had contained major errors. The agency’s website said, unequivocally, that “there is no evidence that people are infectious during the incubation period” — an assertion that would remain online in some form for months.

French health officials, too, left no room for debate: “A person is contagious only when symptoms appear,” a government flyer read. “No symptoms = no risk of being contagious.”

As Dr. Rothe and Dr. Hoelscher reeled from the criticism, Japanese doctors were preparing to board the Diamond Princess cruise ship. A former passenger had tested positive for coronavirus.

Yet on the ship, parties continued. The infected passenger had been off the ship for days, after all. And he hadn’t reported symptoms while onboard.

Immediately after Dr. Rothe’s report, the World Health Organization had noted that patients might transmit the virus before showing symptoms. But the organization also underscored a point that it continues to make: Patients with symptoms are the main drivers of the epidemic.

Once the Science article was published, however, the organization waded directly into the debate on Dr. Rothe’s work. On Tuesday, Feb. 4, Dr. Sylvie Briand, the agency’s chief of infectious disease preparedness, tweeted a link to the Science article, calling Dr. Rothe’s report flawed.

With that tweet, the W.H.O. focused on a semantic distinction that would cloud discussion for months: Was the patient asymptomatic, meaning she would never show symptoms? Or pre-symptomatic, meaning she became sick later? Or, even more confusing, oligo-symptomatic, meaning that she had symptoms so mild that she didn’t recognize them?

To some doctors, the focus on these arcane distinctions felt like whistling in the graveyard. A person who feels healthy has no way to know that she is carrying a virus or is about to become sick. Airport temperature checks will not catch these people. Neither will asking them about their symptoms or telling them to stay home when they feel ill.

The W.H.O. later said that the tweet had not been intended as a criticism.

One group paid little attention to this brewing debate: the Munich-area doctors working to contain the cluster at the auto parts company. They spoke daily with potentially sick people, monitoring their symptoms and tracking their contacts.

“For us, it was pretty soon clear that this disease can be transmitted before symptoms,” said Dr. Monika Wirth, who tracked contacts in the nearby county of Fürstenfeldbruck.

Dr. Rothe, though, was shaken. She could not understand why much of the scientific establishment seemed eager to play down the risk.

“All you need is a pair of eyes,” she said. “You don’t need rocket-science virology.”

But she remained confident.

“We will be proven right,” she told Dr. Hoelscher.

That night, Dr. Rothe received an email from Dr. Michael Libman, an infectious-disease specialist in Montreal. He thought that criticism of the paper amounted to semantics. Her paper had convinced him of something: “The disease will most likely eventually spread around the world.”

Political Paralysis
On Feb. 4, Britain’s emergency scientific committee met and, while its experts did not rule out the possibility of symptomless transmission, nobody put much stock in Dr. Rothe’s paper.

“It was very much a hearsay study,” said Wendy Barclay, a virologist and member of the committee, known as the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies. “In the absence of real robust epidemiology and tracing, it isn’t obvious until you see the data.”

The data would soon arrive, and from an unexpected source. Dr. Böhmer, from the Bavarian health team, received a startling phone call in the second week of February.

Virologists had discovered a subtle genetic mutation in the infections of two patients from the Munich cluster. They had crossed paths for the briefest of moments, one passing a saltshaker to the other in the company cafeteria, when neither had symptoms. Their shared mutation made it clear that one had infected the other.

Dr. Böhmer had been skeptical of symptomless spreading. But now, there was no doubt: “It can only be explained with pre-symptomatic transmission,” Dr. Böhmer said.

Now it was Dr. Böhmer who sounded the alarm. She said she promptly shared the finding, and its significance, with the W.H.O. and the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control.

Neither organization included the discovery in its regular reports.

A week after receiving Dr. Böhmer’s information, European health officials were still declaring: “We are still unsure whether mild or asymptomatic cases can transmit the virus.” There was no mention of the genetic evidence.

W.H.O. officials say the genetic discovery informed their thinking, but they made no announcement of it. European health officials say the German information was one early piece of an emerging picture that they were still piecing together.

The doctors in Munich were increasingly frustrated and confused by the World Health Organization. First, the group wrongly credited the Chinese government with alerting the German authorities to the first infection. Government officials and doctors say the auto parts company itself sounded the alarm.

Then, the World Health Organization’s emergency director, Dr. Michael Ryan, said on Feb. 27 that the significance of symptomless spreading was becoming a myth. And Dr. Maria Van Kerkhove, the organization’s technical lead on coronavirus response, suggested it was nothing to worry about.

“It’s rare but possible,” she said. “It’s very rare.”

The agency still maintains that people who cough or sneeze are more contagious than people who don’t. But there is no scientific consensus on how significant this difference is or how it affects the spread of virus.

And so, with evidence mounting, the Munich team could not understand how the W.H.O. could be so sure that symptomless spreading was insignificant.

“At this point, for us it was clear,” said Dr. Wendtner, the senior doctor overseeing treatment of the Covid-19 patients. “This was a misleading statement by the W.HO.”

The Chinese health authorities had explicitly cautioned that patients were contagious before showing symptoms. A Japanese bus driver was infected while transporting seemingly healthy tourists from Wuhan.

And by the middle of February, 355 people aboard the Diamond Princess cruise ship had tested positive. About a third of the infected passengers and staff had no symptoms.

But public health officials saw danger in promoting the risk of silent spreaders. If quarantining sick people and tracing their contacts could not reliably contain the disease, governments might abandon those efforts altogether.

In Sweden and Britain, for example, discussion swirled about enduring the epidemic until the population obtained “herd immunity.” Public health officials worried that might lead to overwhelmed hospitals and needless deaths.

“It’s not like we had some easy alternative,” said Dr. Libman, the Canadian doctor. “The message was basically: ‘If this is true, we’re in trouble.’”

European health officials say they were reluctant to acknowledge silent spreading because the evidence was trickling in and the consequences of a false alarm would have been severe. “These reports are seen everywhere, all over the world,” said Dr. Josep Jansa, a senior European Union health official. “Whatever we put out, there’s no way back.”

Looking back, health officials should have said that, yes, symptomless spreading was happening and they did not understand how prevalent it was, said Dr. Agoritsa Baka, a senior European Union doctor.

But doing that, she said, would have amounted to an implicit warning to countries: What you’re doing might not be enough.

While public health officials hesitated, some doctors acted. At a conference in Seattle in mid-February, Jeffrey Shaman, a Columbia University professor, said his research suggested that Covid-19’s rapid spread could only be explained if there were infectious patients with unremarkable symptoms or no symptoms at all.

In the audience that day was Steven Chu, the Nobel-winning physicist and former U.S. energy secretary. “If left to its own devices, this disease will spread through the whole population,” he remembers Professor Shaman warning.

Afterward, Dr. Chu began insisting that healthy colleagues at his Stanford University laboratory wear masks. Doctors in Cambridge, England, concluded that asymptomatic transmission was a big source of infection and advised local health workers and patients to wear masks, well before the British government acknowledged the risk of silent spreaders.

The American authorities, faced with a shortage, actively discouraged the public from buying masks. “Seriously people — STOP BUYING MASKS!” Surgeon General Jerome M. Adams tweeted on Feb. 29.

By early March, while the World Health Organization continued pressing the case that symptom-free transmission was rare, science was breaking in the other direction.

Researchers in Hong Kong estimated that 44 percent of Covid-19 transmission occurred before symptoms began, an estimate that was in line with a British study that put that number as high as 50 percent.

The Hong Kong study concluded that people became infectious about two days before their illness emerged, with a peak on their first day of symptoms. By the time patients felt the first headache or scratch in the throat, they might have been spreading the disease for days.

In Belgium, doctors saw that math in action, as Covid-19 tore through nursing homes, killing nearly 5,000 people.

“We thought that by monitoring symptoms and asking sick people to stay at home, we would be able to manage the spread,” said Steven Van Gucht, the head of Belgium’s Covid-19 scientific committee. “It came in through people with hardly any symptoms.”

More than 700 people aboard the Diamond Princess were sickened. Fourteen died. Researchers estimate that most of the infection occurred early on, while seemingly healthy passengers socialized and partied.

Government scientists in Britain concluded in late April that 5 to 6 percent of symptomless health care workers were infected and might have been be spreading the virus.

In Munich, Dr. Hoelscher has asked himself many times whether things would have been different if world leaders had taken the issue seriously earlier. He compared their response to a rabbit stumbling upon a poisonous snake.

“We were watching that snake and were somehow paralyzed,” he said.

As the research coalesced in March, European health officials were convinced.

“OK, this is really a big issue,” Dr. Baka recalled thinking. “It plays a big role in the transmission.”

By the end of the month, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control announced it was rethinking its policy on masks. It concluded that up to 25 percent of patients might have no symptoms.

Since then, the C.D.C., governments around the world and, finally, the World Health Organization have recommended that people wear masks in public.

Still, the W.H.O. is sending confusing signals. Earlier this month, Dr. Van Kerkhove, the technical lead, repeated that transmission from asymptomatic patients was “very rare.” After an outcry from doctors, the agency said there had been a misunderstanding.

“In all honesty, we don’t have a clear picture on this yet,” Dr. Van Kerkhove said. She said she had been referring to a few studies showing limited transmission from asymptomatic patients.

Dr. Böhmer published a study in The Lancet last month that found “substantial” transmission from people with no symptoms or exceptionally mild, nonspecific symptoms.Credit...Laetitia Vancon for The New York Times
Recent internet ads confused the matter even more. A Google search in mid-June for studies on asymptomatic transmission returned a W.H.O. advertisement titled: “People With No Symptoms — Rarely Spread Coronavirus.”

Clicking on the link, however, offered a much more nuanced picture: “Some reports have indicated that people with no symptoms can transmit the virus. It is not yet known how often it happens.”

After The Times asked about those discrepancies, the organization removed the advertisements.

Back in Munich, there is little doubt left. Dr. Böhmer, the Bavarian government doctor, published a study in The Lancet last month that relied on extensive interviews and genetic information to methodically track every case in the cluster.

In the months after Dr. Rothe swabbed her first patient, 16 infected people were identified and caught early. All survived. Aggressive testing and flawless contact-tracing contained the spread.

Dr. Böhmer’s study found “substantial” transmission from people with no symptoms or exceptionally mild, nonspecific symptoms.

Dr. Rothe and her colleagues got a footnote.

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Saturday, 27 June 2020 22:29 (three years ago) link

Huh, is this good or bad?

BREAKING: #60Minutes investigation reveals Trump knowingly allowed flawed #COVID19 antibody tests to circulate, leading to inaccurate data about virus spread, creating data to support re-openings, and potentially causing thousands more preventable deaths. https://t.co/n2dpGcklyu

— Richard Hine (@richardhine) June 27, 2020

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Saturday, 27 June 2020 22:36 (three years ago) link

ty for the nyt article. I grabbed it to share elsewhere.

the unappreciated charisma of cows (Aimless), Saturday, 27 June 2020 22:42 (three years ago) link

Some measured replies to this tweet

"Prolonged periods of lockdown cocooning the public from germs could leave people dangerously vulnerable to new viruses, a leading epidemiologist has warned" https://t.co/SZ0vTRLKRJ

— Anna #LiftTheLockdown moving to #Parler (@AnnaV007) June 27, 2020

chonky floof (groovypanda), Sunday, 28 June 2020 09:52 (three years ago) link

"That has always been the plan. Keep people away from fresh air and sunshine, incubate the virus, mask people up to suppress immunity and then off we go again. Man managed epidemics to order !!"

Galaxy brain there

I'm deleting Twitter

kinder, Sunday, 28 June 2020 10:03 (three years ago) link

In the hours before President Trump’s rally in Tulsa, his campaign directed the removal of thousands of “Do Not Sit Here, Please!” stickers from seats in the arena that were intended to establish social distance between rallygoers, according to video and photos obtained by The Washington Post and a person familiar with the event.

The removal contradicted instructions from the management of the BOK Center, the 19,000-seat arena in downtown Tulsa where Trump held his rally on June 20. At the time, coronavirus cases were rising sharply in Tulsa County, and Trump faced intense criticism for convening a large crowd for an indoor political rally, his first such event since the start of the pandemic.

As part of its safety plan, arena management had purchased 12,000 do-not-sit stickers for Trump’s rally, intended to keep people apart by leaving open seats between attendees. On the day of the rally, event staff had already affixed them on nearly every other seat in the arena when Trump’s campaign told event management to stop and then began removing the stickers, hours before the president’s arrival, according to a person familiar with the event who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal matters.

In a video clip obtained by The Washington Post, two men — one in a suit and one wearing a badge and a face mask — can be seen pulling stickers off seats in a section of the arena. It is unclear who those two men are. When Trump took the stage on Saturday evening, the crowd was clustered together and attendees were not leaving empty seats between themselves.

time is running out to pitch in $5 (Karl Malone), Sunday, 28 June 2020 17:32 (three years ago) link

Trailer for next weekend in England:

85 cases, from a single restaurant, that followed spacing guidelines, in a state with relatively low transmission.

I’m very pessimistic that there’s any safe way to reopen indoor dining. Capping occupancy won’t cut it. Outdoor and carry out only for now. https://t.co/o5XXS7yoaC

— Jeremy BLACK LIVES MATTER Konyndyk (@JeremyKonyndyk) June 27, 2020



Not that you're wrong, but seems questionable that this particular bar actually follows spacing guidelines https://t.co/Zd1HTvIBJT

— Evgeni Crosby (@igglevids) June 27, 2020

chonky floof (groovypanda), Sunday, 28 June 2020 18:53 (three years ago) link

sheesh

all cats are beautiful (silby), Sunday, 28 June 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link

more like the clientele weren't and the staff didn't want to get murdered by an angry mob

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 June 2020 18:59 (three years ago) link

meaning, the measures are irrelevant if your customers won't follow them, and your overworked staff can't possibly act as police on top of serving tables

most bars in our town were paying lip service to standards and not following them. shocker that we exploded.

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 June 2020 19:00 (three years ago) link

I was once a college student on the hunt for beer, and I can't imagine how my friends and I in normal times would've wanted to drink so badly that we'd stand in the heat and in a mob.

TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 28 June 2020 19:03 (three years ago) link

I have mild claustrophobia so there's zero time I would ever want to be packed in that tightly at something that was ostensibly supposed to be "Fun"

I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 June 2020 19:06 (three years ago) link

No safe way for groups to congregate indoors means the the sunbelt is either going to see more deaths than New York saw or they’re going to have to go into a stricter lockdown until winter.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 28 June 2020 19:41 (three years ago) link

Also this is bleak

Both our Hugo’s Tacos locations are now closed temporarily. We look forward to reopening again soon when it’s safe! pic.twitter.com/DM3ZHOgpZV

— Hugo's Tacos (@hugostacos) June 28, 2020

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 28 June 2020 19:42 (three years ago) link


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