Reveal Your Uncool Conservative Beliefs Here

small biz entrepreneurs actually work insanely hard ime, especially at the outset. my mom quit her job to open a small resto when i was in junior high and it was the most i’ve ever seen anyone work in my life. i work in academia and i hope/intend to never work that hard for a sustained period lol. probably a comparable workload to finance or workaholic execs of big corps in terms of hours per week. it was good that her employees didn’t have to work that hard, and once things were up-and-running she was definitely able to chill (took about a year) but even then she ended up selling it to her chef because it was too draining. imo whatever ideology small biz owners have is p well deserved from the amount of work it takes to get it off the ground, plus the risk they bear if it fails.

i don’t think capitalistic evilness has a straightforward relationship to firm size; there are better ways to make work conditions good than through policy interventions in firm size like breakups of mergers, which should be reserved for antitrust and other product market concerns. small business are on tighter margins + don’t benefit from economies of scale so tend to pay less, but also have face-to-face relationships with their employees which often makes it harder to exploit than in a giant faceless corp. also the division of labor in a big company arguably makes work more “alienated” if u think that concept is meaningful. on the other hand, larger firms are subject to more stringent labor regulations and more often unionized and have HR departments. a truly enormous firm can pay lower wages if it’s monopsonistic and although there’s some evidence that happens at the margin, overall wages are strongly positively correlated with firm size

i hate it when non-religious liberals post memes like this

https://i.imgur.com/8xEjMwx.jpg

"did you know that when you say 'all lives matter,' you're actually disagreeing with Jesus Christ himself? lol owned!"

being that I'm an atheist, I find it pointless in general to invoke a guy I don't believe in to win an argument, so I tend to find it pointless.

most of those religious-appeal memes are indeed crap

There’s definitely something about those memes that has an air of winning an argument with yourself. Insert any half-hearted invocation of religion, “conservative values” etc

when you finally do submit to yourself, though, what a feeling

Being's believing
-Psalms 73:7

also the division of labor in a big company arguably makes work more “alienated” if u think that concept is meaningful.

I feel like that's one of the most meaningful concepts actually. It is why I am sometimes skeptical of "big government" in that government bureaucracies are structured and function similarly to large corporations. The responsiveness to "customers" and "communities" tends to be greater for smaller entities where those who have decision-making powers have closer ties to those they serve. I have had equally Kafka-esque experiences with both large corporations and government agencies.

small biz entrepreneurs actually work insanely hard ime, especially at the outset.

otm -- I have seen others do it and I have done so personally ...

The way I see it, American capitalism has a largely fixed upper class and bourgeoise with a sort of quasi-meritocratic lottery system for others to make it into these classes. One of the ways you can do that is as a "small business owner," and it legitimately is *possible* for a person to win that game through a combination of intense hard work, talent, exploitation of the labor of others, and luck, but the product of that process is people who are extra-bought-in to the mythology of capitalism. Because they saw it work for them, so it must work.

There's a bit of desperation behind the small business push *against* minimum wage as a result. Because the odds are much more stacked against them, and the owners are very invested in the idea that they have to succeed, and tbh they generally are more threatened financially by minimum wage laws than large businesses due to scale. It's true that minimum wage probably hurts small business owners more. It's just that the underlying assumption is "I deserve for my business to succeed so I can escape my wretched status, therefore of course I should be able to exploit the wretched status of others." They would never overtly think of it that way, of course.

I think they overtly think of it that way

like maybe they don't think "exploit" but they honestly think "if I have to pay people more my business will fail!" and it's like fuck you it should fail if you can't succeed while paying people enough to live and thrive in the city they work in

my opinions on small business owners are on the record though

Sounds like they coincide with mine.

fuck you it should fail if you can't succeed while paying people enough to live and thrive in the city they work in

This is one of those catchy sentiments that I think gets the emphasis wrong. Because the whole point is that most people could not afford to pay others a living wage while also striving to break through to wealth with their small business, and those who could probably have family wealth. I mean, yeah, they are assholes, but their assholedom is just a product of our strive-or-die system.

Like how the fuck can anyone start a business from nothing and pay people a living wage the entire time unless they have significant capital?

And how is that different from any other country in the world?

I guess the exception is a business that can be gotten off the ground with only your own unpaid labor (or you and your partner) or whatever, and then you work a second job to pay for your food and housing. This is the ethic our society lionizes.

And how is that different from any other country in the world?

― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Monday, July 6, 2020 12:51 PM (thirty-three seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Um, in other countries people have healthcare, a social safety net, etc.

And small business owners are still dicks.

you can't public policy your way out of dicks existing tbrr

I mean, having one's own basic needs met while getting a business of the ground and not worrying about becoming homeless or being unable to pay for insulin probably lessens one's need to exploit the labor of others, and if those workers also have their basic needs met and basic security that's even better for both the workers and the business.

US government contracting is rife with small businesses that are doing decently well by obtaining SB setaside contracts. Ideally you can fish in a variety of ponds if you are, for example, a service-disabled veteran who is also an Alaska Native, a woman, and you are incorporated in a historically underutilized business zone. Much of this work is IT-focused defense contracting, for living wages. But the deck is heavily stacked for those who are good at playing it.

(xp) That sounds good but it's not really how it works. Not that I disagree with your analysis of why so many of small business owners are assholes, it's just I don't buy that US small business owners are uniquely assholes, they might have some unique circumstances that make it likely they will act as assholes but small business owners are assholes the world over (ditto cops btw). There are even circumstances unique to places outside the US that ensure they produce excess of assholes too.

you can't public policy your way out of dicks existing tbrr

― trapped out the barndo (crüt)

well, shit, why the hell am i advocating for universal coverage for transgender healthcare then?

I guess the exception is a business that can be gotten off the ground with only your own unpaid labor (or you and your partner) or whatever, and then you work a second job to pay for your food and housing. This is the ethic our society lionizes.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, July 6, 2020 10:52 AM (yesterday)

uh, not really? or, it only "lionizes" it if you are successful and if your business is of a certain category? I certainly didn't feel "lionized" by society when I and my (former) partner did this. Conversely, I feel like our society prizes "rising through the ranks" more than any sort of DIY type ethos that is more consistent with starting your own business. It definitely values results more than process.

Though, it could very well be that we might be more attuned to when "the other" is valued, as opposed to "oneself."

like maybe they don't think "exploit" but they honestly think "if I have to pay people more my business will fail!" and it's like fuck you it should fail if you can't succeed while paying people enough to live and thrive in the city they work in

― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, July 6, 2020 10:39 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

my opinions on small business owners are on the record though

― all cats are beautiful (silby), Monday, July 6, 2020 10:40 AM (yesterday)

apparently we can't public policy our way out of dicks existing on ilx either -- so ... I am going to try and not take this personally, and go super aggro on you, but your smarmy shtick is really grating, in general. It just reeks of white boi privilege and being like ... 25 years old ... and fear. Like, you strike me as someone is who afraid to risk anything real, but are happy to judge other people who do. And a lot of the time those risks come with a lot of personal challenges, that sometimes ends up making someone do things they regret, or behave towards others in an unethical way ... but ideally (and actually many times) it leads to personal growth and change and learning from those mistakes. ... I am talking about small business owners, mainly -- not quite ready to apply that to cops that kill people, though I guess we all draw the line somewhere.

Otfm. I don't know if Silby's hatred of small businesses means they prefer big businesses or not? You know, the ones who actually make squeezing out employees 'store policy' and a big part of their growth/$$$ model? Or do they prefer no businesses at all?

another thing that I've seen play out is small business owners being more responsive to being called out for things and changing business practices to be more equitable, whereas big business and government tend to make token gestures or take out ads or whatever, and then it's back to business as usual.

like, I am not arguing that all small business owners are good people. some actually are good people and do the right thing almost all the time, and they are like saints. the majority will make mistakes, and some of them, when called out on them, will be receptive to change and become better people.

maybe it's my startup experience talking but ime small business owners are generally tyrants and cranks, their own type of evil distinct from major CEOs or whatever

I AM COMBOT, MUST SEIZE CONTROL OF AND DISTRIBUTE GRAIN SEMI-MONTHLY

i know you did not intend it, but now I have snippets of songs from Joseph and the Motherfucking Technicolor Dreamcoat stuck in head

lol...I've actually been in that musical twice.

may it be relegated to the ashheap of musical theater history

my personal experience working for small business owners: first was a narcissist with cult-leader aspirations (also my boyfriend haha!), second was a libertarian boomer chauvinist who expected everyone to work as hard as he did for $15 / hour (said libertarian notably worked for years in the national park service and presumably had great benefits because of it), third was for my brother in his fintech startup, basically a charity position and i got treated with kid gloves until i got laid off. i'm now working for the state and it's mellow so i'm feeling pretty good about larger bureaucracies atm.

my experience working for small businesses has not, overall, left me with a lot of respect for small business owners as a class. i am not inclined to elucidate further on a public forum.

take any group of many thousands of people and you will find examples of the most wonderful and worst human beings

except in eminence, MO. there you will find nothing but the worst

small business owners and big business owners often gravitate towards the horrible, it's just easier to be discreet terrible when you're a big publicly traded company and ergo have an HR you can 'blame'

Or do they prefer no businesses at all?

― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:09 AM (two hours ago)

well,

not a conservative belief though

anyway I've resolved not to get in fights on ilx during business hours after what happened in March so namaste

How about busy-ness.

I am going to try and not take this personally, and go super aggro on you, but your smarmy shtick is really grating, in general. It just reeks of white boi privilege and being like ... 25 years old ... and fear. Like, you strike me as someone is who afraid to risk anything real, but are happy to judge other people who do.

love this extremely pompous bad post, esp the ditumish "sorry you're not brave" bit. this site is truly joyless, our time would be better spent going back to crying about what toxic pieces of shit we are

Have you, ahem, seen some of the invective hurled by the person those comments were made towards during the last few months?

sarahell's comments didn't just occur in a vacuum.

(I'm not anti-silby or anything, just saying silby was doing a "small business owners are scum of the earth" type spiel that irked several actual business owner ilxors not all that long ago in a separate thread, so some of that probably factors in here).

i don't understand treating "small business owners" as a single category. it doesn't make any sense.

please buy my meat pies