Reveal Your Uncool Conservative Beliefs Here

like, I include members of worker-owned co-ops in my definition of small business owners, as well as self-employed people who don't have employees, and Executive Directors (senior staff) of small non-profits. ...

If righteous posters silby and gyac want to besmirch the category of members of worker-owned co-ops, please, go ahead ... they aren't perfect and there are systemic problems in re equity and other things but ... I am open to discussing those fairly and respectfully

Seems like in the US small businesses can be as big as 1500 employees and $30M in revenues. So there is a spectrum.

what in the ever-loving fuck did this thread turn into

and “worker-owned co-ops” is the credible outlier small business model that only a KNOWN TROLL would bring up when small business is being criticized ffs

I’m gonna do it

#notallsmallbusinessowners

lol

like for every fuckin’ co-op run with an average amount of drama there are a half dozen home/landscaping/construction contractors underpaying immigrants under the table who spend the other half their day screaming about how their suburban monstrosity of a house is overtaxed

so ... you only want to eat at chain restaurants?

I only wanna eat at small business restaurants that only hire young people and routinely sexually harass them, tyvm 😉

like what is the argument here: that small businesses owners are horrible people and thus small businesses shouldn't exist? ... or that small business owners are not inherently saintly? ... or ... large corporations are better than small businesses because there are more checks/balances on the people that run them, because all people that run businesses are horrible people?

I stopped eating at the local chain that counts as a small business because the owner is a total shithead who testified to the city council that we absolutely should not raise the minimum wage and is a bad employer. If there’s a group meeting I don’t control, I’d go there but tip very well.

That guy is generally the exception and not the rule, with the caveat that most small businesses are going to have wage pressures as they take on employees and it’s really hard to make any restaurant successful

pretending “small businesses are bad” is some blanket condemnation of small businesses in particular and not the societal conditions that keep them bad is some bullshit, along with thinking it comes with the implication that corporate chains are better. absolutely no one has said “corporate chains are better than small business restaurants”

if you absolutely have to hear it said as “the current small business model is bad” then I’ll insert the words

LL gets it

I hold fast to the uncool conservative belief that power corrupts -- so I am certainly not arguing against the posters here that are citing actual examples of small business owners being horrible people, because power tends to make people do bad things, and people with a tendency to garbage behavior are often attracted to power and obtain it more easily.

“the current small business model is bad” then I’ll insert the words

what model are we talking about? ...

I mean, I regularly say all software development is horrible — and that is WHAT I DO and what silby does — and we all nod appreciatively in the given thread

like this is worse, sarahell, than when you’re like “oh the tax code actually makes perfect sense if you read the documentation” which is mental because defending one of the things that’s notably a fiasco top to bottom is weird and contrarian

Dr. Pangloss business over here

the small business model is one where we offer no incentive to pay over minimum wage when our cities encourage new businesses, we link healthcare to employment putting an oversized burden on small businesses, we have at-will employment laws that both empower small businesses yet keep them from allowing workers to have any power

i think i have only ever worked for terrible small business owners. it's my specialty.

“oh the tax code actually makes perfect sense if you read the documentation” which is mental because defending one of the things that’s notably a fiasco top to bottom is weird and contrarian

not really -- all I was saying by that is that it has an internal logic. I am not saying it is inherently good. I am not saying that it should be set in stone and that it can't be changed for the better. ... though I will rep for certain provisions of the tax code that actually are designed to help promote economic equity and to combat fraud and greed of the wealthy.

I mean, the most wrong-headed ideas about starting small businesses come from the top down. See: Harris’s presidential campaign doing some “well if you have a Pell grant and start a business after college and pay back the loan within X months etc etc” contrived shit

we don’t do anything to encourage the small businesses to act right, and we have a bunch of bullshit coming in from chambers of commerce both local and national since they don’t care about employees and in some cases, actively shun businesses that treat employees well

it’s really hard to be a small business owner that does right by their employees and is able to succeed *by design*. it’s systematic

also, a bunch of small business owners are assholes

my uncool opinion is that if you own a business and want it to succeed then BE A GODDAMN ASSHOLE

because the system ain’t going to help you otherwise

the small business model is one where we offer no incentive to pay over minimum wage when our cities encourage new businesses, we link healthcare to employment putting an oversized burden on small businesses, we have at-will employment laws that both empower small businesses yet keep them from allowing workers to have any power

okay, those are specific things that I agree with you on completely. Also, those affect certain types of small businesses more than others. ... Like I find it totally baffling that you would assume that I knew that this is what you were referring to.

did you think we were talking about co-ops? I somehow know this shit from osmosis and reading!

Uh, idk dude -- small businesses include consulting firms, and architectural firms, and recording studios and industrial door installers ... as well as restaurants, retail, landscaping ... they don't all have the same labor requirements ... as in relatively unskilled labor that systemically, and due to the nature of the business, ends up having to be kept as low as possible. There are small business categories that also employ a significant number of people where all the workers are paid quite well (compared to the minimum wage people or the day laborers) because the business requires highly-skilled labor. ... Like, you say you work in software development. There are small businesses that consist mostly of software developers. Maybe they get paid less than if they worked for Microsoft or Apple or Amazon ... but they are probably better compensated than a barrista at Starbucks.

And I have dealt with this for years working in the non-profit sector, where the equivalent jobs in government and in big corporations pay wayyyyyy more than working for a small to mid-size non-profit ... but, not all work satisfaction and life satisfaction is tied to those material factors.

So we're back to small business owners being great everywhere but the USA. OK.

I've worked for dozens of small businesses and like maybe 5-10% of the owners were kinda shitty? Idk ... maybe I'm lucky? I self-define as a small business owner, but I don't have any workers, I do all the work myself ... which, would you say that is the same or is your definition of "small business owner" someone who has employees?

Definitely someone with employees.

like what is the argument here: that small businesses owners are horrible people and thus small businesses shouldn't exist? ... or that small business owners are not inherently saintly? ... or ... large corporations are better than small businesses because there are more checks/balances on the people that run them, because all people that run businesses are horrible people?

I think if you start from the proposition that capitalism as a framework is bad (not, btw, a conservative opinion), then for-profit business is pretty much the main locus of badness. Anyone who wants to succeed as an entrepreneur within that framework is pretty likely to be a bad person.

Silby, at least, hinted as much, in a welcome moment of honesty here:

Or do they prefer no businesses at all?

― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:09 AM (two hours ago)

well,

― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 2:44 PM (yesterday)

Small businesses that squeeze value from employees while not being able to pay them a living wage? Bad.

Large businesses that squeeze value from employees while being able (but not willing) to pay them a living wage? Also bad. But bad in a different way.

Apologies if I'm misrepresenting anyone's viewpoint. But p much if you think for-profit business is an inherently corrupt and corrupting activity, then you will be approximately as opposed to small businesses as large ones.

If, on the other hand, you only object to those businesses that mistreat and/or underpay workers, then you will be cool with the sort of non-shitty businessmammals that sarahell alludes to here:

small businesses include consulting firms, and architectural firms, and recording studios and industrial door installers ... as well as restaurants, retail, landscaping ... they don't all have the same labor requirements ... as in relatively unskilled labor that systemically, and due to the nature of the business, ends up having to be kept as low as possible. There are small business categories that also employ a significant number of people where all the workers are paid quite well (compared to the minimum wage people or the day laborers) because the business requires highly-skilled labor. ... Like, you say you work in software development. There are small businesses that consist mostly of software developers. Maybe they get paid less than if they worked for Microsoft or Apple or Amazon ... but they are probably better compensated than a barrista at Starbucks.

capitalism as a framework is bad (not, btw, a conservative opinion), then for-profit business is pretty much the main locus of badness.

okay ... so ... going from there, that capitalism as a framework is bad ... let's say there is a product or service that you feel would be useful and desirable to people besides yourself that is currently not being made or offered. Let's say that you are capable of making this product or offering this service. What is a non-bad way of doing that?

let's say that product is wolf erotica.

continue.

Basically, is there a way to make or do a thing and be compensated for it that is not bad?

I too like to move so far away from the initial argument that you’d need a telescope to see it.

“So are you saying...money...is...bad?”

A singular wolf-erotica producer owns the means of production (whatever that may be) and gives the wolf erotica away for free. Everyone else in the community agrees that the wolf erotica is useful and desirable, and in their weekly meeting they democratically decide to reward the wolf-eroticist with extra food, clothing, and luxury goods. This is happening in a context where all basic needs are met through UBI.

Or, an autonomous collective of wolf-erotica producers gets together. They live cooperatively, pooling their existing resources (including generous UBI), and they do the work of wolf-erotica production for the love of their craft, and their desire to enrich the world with their creative work.

Again, the community at large may decide that it is a beneficial activity, and may further choose to reward the wolf-erotica production collective with extra rations (or whatever else the wolf-eroticists feel they need).

Does the wolf erotica have to be given away for free, even though you spent 500 hours writing and designing it and paid 5 people for consulting services: the wildlife biologist who advised on the sexual habits of actual wolves, the graphic artist to create 3-D models of sexy wolves, two dancers to perform physical wolf-like movements in an erotic manner to help with your visualization of the sex scenes, and a lawyer to make sure that your wolf erotica doesn't violate any laws?

how about zero dollars of my taxes go to wolf erotica

I'm Getting Furry!HoooooooooooooooooooooWWWoWooooWoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

― conner Smedley (gsc660), Friday, January 31, 2003 3:27 PM (seventeen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

lawyer is also there to sue the other wolf erotica writers for infringing on the source material.

^^ Yerac gets it

while you've all been arguing, my meat pies have gone bad and i have been forced to sell my stock at below cost to Purina
i am now going to work in the data mines

truly i have been liberated from the yoke of capitalism!

"let's say that product is wolf erotica.

― Yerac"

i have a friend who is trying to start a business doing that, any constructive suggestions welcome

"I hold fast to the uncool conservative belief that power corrupts -- so I am certainly not arguing against the posters here that are citing actual examples of small business owners being horrible people, because power tends to make people do bad things, and people with a tendency to garbage behavior are often attracted to power and obtain it more easily.

― sarahell"

i overanalyze and have, since i read it, been fascinated by robert caro's counterproposal that "power reveals". i suspect that to be broadly true, but what it reveals is broadly dependent on how we are changed by the process of obtaining power.

most of the ways of obtaining power, particularly as pertains to capital, do tend to fuck one up.

Okay -- let's make this a bit more challenging, in this hypothetical, we're gonna posit that there is no UBI to subsidize/capitalize the wolf erotica production -- how do we make the best of this less than ideal situation

i feel like the wolf erotica market may have peaked/become oversaturated. xpost

we are also going to posit that housing and food are obtained in exchange for money, and are not provided for free by the governing body.

Does the wolf erotica have to be given away for free, even though you spent 500 hours writing and designing it

Hmm. That sounds suspiciously like capitalism. The Marxist position is "from each according to their ability and to each according to their need."

So, "From each according to their ability to produce wolf erotica; to each according to their need to consume wolf erotica."

But here we're getting far afield from uncool conservative beliefs.

let's say there is a great need to consume wolf erotica, but the person/people who have the greatest ability to produce wolf erotica do not have the resources to produce as much wolf erotica as there is a desire for

so, we would either need to deprive some consumers of wolf erotica who really need it, or ... we need to provide additional resources to the producers of wolf erotica so that everyone who needs wolf erotica can have it

or ... we determine who needs the wolf erotica the most and those who don't need it as much can have something else ... like walrus erotica