it’s really hard to be a small business owner that does right by their employees and is able to succeed *by design*. it’s systematic
also, a bunch of small business owners are assholes
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
my uncool opinion is that if you own a business and want it to succeed then BE A GODDAMN ASSHOLE
because the system ain’t going to help you otherwise
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:34 (three years ago) link
the small business model is one where we offer no incentive to pay over minimum wage when our cities encourage new businesses, we link healthcare to employment putting an oversized burden on small businesses, we have at-will employment laws that both empower small businesses yet keep them from allowing workers to have any power
okay, those are specific things that I agree with you on completely. Also, those affect certain types of small businesses more than others. ... Like I find it totally baffling that you would assume that I knew that this is what you were referring to.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:34 (three years ago) link
did you think we were talking about co-ops? I somehow know this shit from osmosis and reading!
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:35 (three years ago) link
Uh, idk dude -- small businesses include consulting firms, and architectural firms, and recording studios and industrial door installers ... as well as restaurants, retail, landscaping ... they don't all have the same labor requirements ... as in relatively unskilled labor that systemically, and due to the nature of the business, ends up having to be kept as low as possible. There are small business categories that also employ a significant number of people where all the workers are paid quite well (compared to the minimum wage people or the day laborers) because the business requires highly-skilled labor. ... Like, you say you work in software development. There are small businesses that consist mostly of software developers. Maybe they get paid less than if they worked for Microsoft or Apple or Amazon ... but they are probably better compensated than a barrista at Starbucks.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:43 (three years ago) link
And I have dealt with this for years working in the non-profit sector, where the equivalent jobs in government and in big corporations pay wayyyyyy more than working for a small to mid-size non-profit ... but, not all work satisfaction and life satisfaction is tied to those material factors.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:49 (three years ago) link
So we're back to small business owners being great everywhere but the USA. OK.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:51 (three years ago) link
I've worked for dozens of small businesses and like maybe 5-10% of the owners were kinda shitty? Idk ... maybe I'm lucky? I self-define as a small business owner, but I don't have any workers, I do all the work myself ... which, would you say that is the same or is your definition of "small business owner" someone who has employees?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:55 (three years ago) link
Definitely someone with employees.
― The Fields o' Fat Henry (Tom D.), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:56 (three years ago) link
like what is the argument here: that small businesses owners are horrible people and thus small businesses shouldn't exist? ... or that small business owners are not inherently saintly? ... or ... large corporations are better than small businesses because there are more checks/balances on the people that run them, because all people that run businesses are horrible people?
I think if you start from the proposition that capitalism as a framework is bad (not, btw, a conservative opinion), then for-profit business is pretty much the main locus of badness. Anyone who wants to succeed as an entrepreneur within that framework is pretty likely to be a bad person.
Silby, at least, hinted as much, in a welcome moment of honesty here:
Or do they prefer no businesses at all?― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:09 AM (two hours ago)well,― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 2:44 PM (yesterday)
― Scampidocio (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 9:09 AM (two hours ago)
well,
― all cats are beautiful (silby), Tuesday, July 7, 2020 2:44 PM (yesterday)
Small businesses that squeeze value from employees while not being able to pay them a living wage? Bad.
Large businesses that squeeze value from employees while being able (but not willing) to pay them a living wage? Also bad. But bad in a different way.
Apologies if I'm misrepresenting anyone's viewpoint. But p much if you think for-profit business is an inherently corrupt and corrupting activity, then you will be approximately as opposed to small businesses as large ones.
If, on the other hand, you only object to those businesses that mistreat and/or underpay workers, then you will be cool with the sort of non-shitty businessmammals that sarahell alludes to here:
small businesses include consulting firms, and architectural firms, and recording studios and industrial door installers ... as well as restaurants, retail, landscaping ... they don't all have the same labor requirements ... as in relatively unskilled labor that systemically, and due to the nature of the business, ends up having to be kept as low as possible. There are small business categories that also employ a significant number of people where all the workers are paid quite well (compared to the minimum wage people or the day laborers) because the business requires highly-skilled labor. ... Like, you say you work in software development. There are small businesses that consist mostly of software developers. Maybe they get paid less than if they worked for Microsoft or Apple or Amazon ... but they are probably better compensated than a barrista at Starbucks.
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 20:58 (three years ago) link
capitalism as a framework is bad (not, btw, a conservative opinion), then for-profit business is pretty much the main locus of badness.
okay ... so ... going from there, that capitalism as a framework is bad ... let's say there is a product or service that you feel would be useful and desirable to people besides yourself that is currently not being made or offered. Let's say that you are capable of making this product or offering this service. What is a non-bad way of doing that?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
let's say that product is wolf erotica.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
continue.
Basically, is there a way to make or do a thing and be compensated for it that is not bad?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:04 (three years ago) link
I too like to move so far away from the initial argument that you’d need a telescope to see it.“So are you saying...money...is...bad?”
― scampos mentis (gyac), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:07 (three years ago) link
A singular wolf-erotica producer owns the means of production (whatever that may be) and gives the wolf erotica away for free. Everyone else in the community agrees that the wolf erotica is useful and desirable, and in their weekly meeting they democratically decide to reward the wolf-eroticist with extra food, clothing, and luxury goods. This is happening in a context where all basic needs are met through UBI.
Or, an autonomous collective of wolf-erotica producers gets together. They live cooperatively, pooling their existing resources (including generous UBI), and they do the work of wolf-erotica production for the love of their craft, and their desire to enrich the world with their creative work.
Again, the community at large may decide that it is a beneficial activity, and may further choose to reward the wolf-erotica production collective with extra rations (or whatever else the wolf-eroticists feel they need).
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link
Does the wolf erotica have to be given away for free, even though you spent 500 hours writing and designing it and paid 5 people for consulting services: the wildlife biologist who advised on the sexual habits of actual wolves, the graphic artist to create 3-D models of sexy wolves, two dancers to perform physical wolf-like movements in an erotic manner to help with your visualization of the sex scenes, and a lawyer to make sure that your wolf erotica doesn't violate any laws?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:09 (three years ago) link
how about zero dollars of my taxes go to wolf erotica
― lumen (esby), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
I'm Getting Furry!HoooooooooooooooooooooWWWoWooooWoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
― conner Smedley (gsc660), Friday, January 31, 2003 3:27 PM (seventeen years ago) bookmarkflaglink
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:12 (three years ago) link
lawyer is also there to sue the other wolf erotica writers for infringing on the source material.
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:14 (three years ago) link
^^ Yerac gets it
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:15 (three years ago) link
while you've all been arguing, my meat pies have gone bad and i have been forced to sell my stock at below cost to Purinai am now going to work in the data mines
― Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:17 (three years ago) link
truly i have been liberated from the yoke of capitalism!
"let's say that product is wolf erotica.
― Yerac"
i have a friend who is trying to start a business doing that, any constructive suggestions welcome
"I hold fast to the uncool conservative belief that power corrupts -- so I am certainly not arguing against the posters here that are citing actual examples of small business owners being horrible people, because power tends to make people do bad things, and people with a tendency to garbage behavior are often attracted to power and obtain it more easily.
― sarahell"
i overanalyze and have, since i read it, been fascinated by robert caro's counterproposal that "power reveals". i suspect that to be broadly true, but what it reveals is broadly dependent on how we are changed by the process of obtaining power.
most of the ways of obtaining power, particularly as pertains to capital, do tend to fuck one up.
― Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:18 (three years ago) link
Okay -- let's make this a bit more challenging, in this hypothetical, we're gonna posit that there is no UBI to subsidize/capitalize the wolf erotica production -- how do we make the best of this less than ideal situation
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
i feel like the wolf erotica market may have peaked/become oversaturated. xpost
― Yerac, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
we are also going to posit that housing and food are obtained in exchange for money, and are not provided for free by the governing body.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:21 (three years ago) link
Does the wolf erotica have to be given away for free, even though you spent 500 hours writing and designing it
Hmm. That sounds suspiciously like capitalism. The Marxist position is "from each according to their ability and to each according to their need."
So, "From each according to their ability to produce wolf erotica; to each according to their need to consume wolf erotica."
But here we're getting far afield from uncool conservative beliefs.
― LinkedIn Park (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:23 (three years ago) link
let's say there is a great need to consume wolf erotica, but the person/people who have the greatest ability to produce wolf erotica do not have the resources to produce as much wolf erotica as there is a desire for
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:25 (three years ago) link
so, we would either need to deprive some consumers of wolf erotica who really need it, or ... we need to provide additional resources to the producers of wolf erotica so that everyone who needs wolf erotica can have it
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:26 (three years ago) link
or ... we determine who needs the wolf erotica the most and those who don't need it as much can have something else ... like walrus erotica
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:27 (three years ago) link
and as a community we need to convince those who had to make do with the walrus erotica to be content with having the less desirable product and not engage in class warfare against those who were able to obtain the more desirable wolf erotica
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:30 (three years ago) link
― sarahell
before you had those words out of your mouth chuck tingle had written five novels of walrus erotica
the deciding factor isn't wolf vs. walrus, but how deeply the erotica resonates with the consumer
― Kate (rushomancy), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 21:59 (three years ago) link
and this is another issue with the community democratically deciding things -- and it gets into the identity politics stuff that a lot of leftists struggle with. ... let's say there are members of the community that would really like more diversity in the wolf erotica produced -- wolves that aren't white and grey, wolf erotica that isn't heteronormative or that is predominantly about wolfpenis being dominant ... well the majority of the community might be just fine with the current wolf erotica. And the current producers of the wolf erotica aren't that good at or comfortable with creating more diverse wolf erotica ... do we redistribute resources in order to produce more diverse wolf erotica and train queer-friendly wolf erotica producers in the art of wolf erotica production, even if that means a reduction in the quantity or quality of wolf erotica produced overall?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:07 (three years ago) link
and it is not unlikely at the community meetings that the more heteronormative wolfpenis dominant fans might use their privilege and numbers to make the marginalized wolf erotica fans be less assertive of their needs.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:10 (three years ago) link
I didn't mean to start some all small business lives matter thing, I mean of course there are good and ethical small business ownersI didn't mean to suggest otherwise or suggest that any family members or friends anyone might have are unethical. I know personally good small business owners.but as a whole it's not all your cool friend who has a vintage store, it's more guys named Rick from Orlando who own lawn care service and just added a fourth F150 to their fleet and own a pontoon boat and pay their workers shit.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:11 (three years ago) link
pretty sure mh is also familiar with Rick from Orlando ... and yeah ... there are a lot of Ricks from Orlando ... and the thing that Kate posted upthread about "power reveals" is really interesting to me. ... Part of where I'm coming from is working with small business owners trying to do the best with limited resources. ... Scarcity often makes people do bad things -- like what mh was saying about systemic problems and things like health insurance being tied to employment, when it would be easier if this was something provided by the government as basic welfare for its people as human beings.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:15 (three years ago) link
I feel like someone has to keep the pontoon industry afloat so the occasional non-douche can own one
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:16 (three years ago) link
also, Rick from Orlando is probably paying alimony to his ex-wife and has kids with substance abuse and mental health issues, partially derived from having shitty ass Rick from Orlando as a dad.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link
not all pontoon owners are douchebags, but many douchebags are pontoon owners
except my dad’s coworker Gary. Gary owns a cigarette boat that he uses in the Ozarks. mega-douchebag.
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:18 (three years ago) link
where did Neanderthal go ... he probably has met the actual Rick from Orlando!
Most Orlando business owners are named Deke and will probably be cancelled by next week.
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:19 (three years ago) link
my dad’s name is Rick and he is a small business owner
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:19 (three years ago) link
Orlando actually has a ton of shitty Trump gun humping dickflap owners running the bars here. Except for the downtown Irish pub
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:20 (three years ago) link
xp - is he never gonna give you up?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:20 (three years ago) link
One of whom took over a struggling bar that my friend had karaoke DJed at for 20+ years and they fired her so they could hire some young people with illegal bootleg karaoke files that would accept less money
― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:21 (three years ago) link
I’m still relatively glad my friend didn’t buy a small town bar last year, for so, so many reasons
― solo scampito (mh), Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:23 (three years ago) link
a friend of mine is a member of a worker-owned co-op restaurant and bar ... it has drama and problems
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:25 (three years ago) link
but nowhere near as bad as the one a few blocks up that was owned by a pedophile who fled Minnesota for here and then fled the country ... that place finally closed
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:26 (three years ago) link
but my friend's place hosted events for a leftist magazine which subsequently shut down after one of the editors was called out as a rapist
― sarahell, Wednesday, 8 July 2020 22:27 (three years ago) link