Joe Biden, Senator from Citibank (oops, DELAWARE), to Run for President

"identity politics nonsense"

Sometimes literally cannot tell the Marxists from the MAGAs.

im not a marxist

liberal identity politics is broadly the weaponizing of structures of oppression and bastardized cribbing from academia in order to advance an agenda that has nothing to do with countering any oppression

Uh-huh.

so it's a morally and intellectually bankrupt exercise that no-one should take part in.

like at least be shakey and write fan fiction in your head about why she's good

The real point is, that she didn’t do anything white prosecutors across the country haven’t done

Do you think "Kamala is a cop" people think any white prosecutors should be President or Vice President?

Got it. Race and gender are irrelevant to The Discourse. Noted.

approaching peak white-dude in here

im latino

And yet you are still approaching peak white-dude

The only practical function of denigrating identity politics is a) to pretend white people don't benefit from it, and b) that's it

Do you think "Kamala is a cop" people think any white prosecutors should be President or Vice President?

I’m sure they don’t. And the poster I linked was not (if you read what she wrote) arguing for the merits of prosecutors. She was making an entirely different point — but one that has been declared meaningless, because identity politics is nonsense.

Do you think "Kamala is a cop" people think any white prosecutors should be President or Vice President?

I’m sure they don’t. And the poster I linked was not (if you read what she wrote) arguing for the merits of prosecutors. She was making an entirely different point — but one that has been declared meaningless, because identity politics is nonsense.

"liberal identity politics" is nonsense.

what are liberal identity politics?

"you can't criticize Kamala Harris if you're white because she's black".

which is not exactly the combahee river collective statement

I also think the wailing and gnashing on teeth about the VP pick from Joe Biden as if Kamala Harris diminishes the Joe Fucking Biden ticket or something is beyond dumb

Huh?

That gnashing did disturb my sleep -- I thought it was cats fucking.

at night all cats are gay.

"you can't criticize Kamala Harris if you're white because she's black".

Also not the point.

And criticizing Senator Harris and charging her with crimes against Black people is an act of willful hubris and cognitive dissonance when it comes from white folks.

?

I mean, it also makes the leap that criticism of Harris's record is about "crimes against Black people" rather than with the acts of a prosecutor and AG against everyone under their power?

The only practical function of denigrating identity politics is a) to pretend white people don't benefit from it, and b) that's it

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Thursday, August 13, 2020 11:12 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm

not all identity politics is the same tho

good discussion itt today / strength to you kate / hi harbl

there's no genuine counterweight to the most virulent anti-Biden stuff. There is no pro-Biden contingent on ILX. Afaik no one who regularly posts on this board even LIKES Joe Biden.

I like him, I think he is a good man if not a good candidate, and I think people will see the difference between him and Trump

― Dan S, Tuesday, August 11, 2020 9:34 AM (three days ago)

what gives me hope is the rise and rise of popular protest movements. black lives matter particularly, but also the women's marches, extinction rebellion, the water protectors of standing rock, etc etc. yes joe biden is a shell of a man and only progressive if you squint hard, and maybe not even then, but popular protest stands a chance of filling this empty vessel with a sense of purpose. maybe the way popular protest steered lbj towards policies he didn't campaign on

biden - by my lights - seems like somebody who could be bent to a particular purpose if enough pressure is applied.

This is actually one of the most immediately dispiriting things about the Biden / Harris ticket - his response to Black Lives Matter, calls for defunding & demilitarising the cops, and protests against police brutality was to promise increased police funding, and to call for us to be shot in the legs. His response to police continuing to brutalise people openly on camera every day, in a way they avoided previously, was to appoint a noted Top Cop with a m/l worrying record. His response to a global pandemic that has killed nearly 200,000 residents and is decimating employment is to insist that employer-provided healthcare is the best, and indeed only, way of dealing with it. His response to economic devastation, a looming Greater Depression, and naked massive kleptocracy was to name a VP who earlier chose not to prosecute Steven Mnuchin, and then took campaign donations from him.

Those are the moves he's making in this moment, the reactions to protest that he's showing. The way the primary appeared to be manipulated by Dem powerbrokers, and was confirmed by Bill Clinton re Clyburn last week, suggests an open message that the upper levels explicitly will not listen to the people, and will insist on telling them what's good for them.


I am not advocating despair, and the most effective political influence can always be exerted at a local level. (The police chief resigned yesterday!!!) But Biden looks far more like an empty vessel that will be filled by handlers and donors than one that can be filled by protest.

i mean i guess i don't think the take tipsy linked is very good either xp

xp #notallidentitypolitics

This is actually one of the most immediately dispiriting things about the Biden / Harris ticket - his response to Black Lives Matter, calls for defunding & demilitarising the cops, and protests against police brutality was to promise increased police funding, and to call for us to be shot in the legs. His response to police continuing to brutalise people openly on camera every day, in a way they avoided previously, was to appoint a noted Top Cop with a m/l worrying record. His response to a global pandemic that has killed nearly 200,000 residents and is decimating employment is to insist that employer-provided healthcare is the best, and indeed only, way of dealing with it. His response to economic devastation, a looming Greater Depression, and naked massive kleptocracy was to name a VP who earlier chose not to prosecute Steven Mnuchin, and then took campaign donations from him.

good post, sic. this is good criticism, the kind that can be responded to, rests on some sort of assertion, and has a point.

leftists who eschew or rabidly criticize “idpol” stuff can seem suspicious to me (not you per se, jim).

but by that same token, liberals (and I’m talking about the ones who are actually Good on most things) who can’t see that idpol stuff can and *has* been used by capital interests and Democratic leadership to undermine any kind of class-based politics/policy, seem naive. for me this was best encapsulated by Hillary’s ”If we broke up the big banks tomorrow….would that end racism?”. I mean the absolute fucking *gall* of her, but some ppl ate that shit up.

I know the people funding her campaign did.

xposts

Well, on the post I linked I think her points speak pretty directly to some of the predictable sniping I've seen in the last few days, and I understand her frustration with it. Obama was subject to much the same, and really almost anyone in their positions would be.

But also I think pretty much any attacks on "identity politics" are suspect. Does it get used as window dressing? Of course it does. But the window dressing itself matters. It's not sufficient, but it's also not insignificant.

two guesses whether i stopped reading the thread. i guess i don't want to work today.

there are abundant black (non-MAGA even) critiques of identity politics and the type of take reflected in that facebook post! it's not an essential white dude position. there is no black consensus to be reached, after the black community has the discussion, on whether kamala harris's career is good or can be excused or whatever. it's ok for everyone to be cognizant of the harm prosecutors do to people every day and think about whether it's ok to prosecute drug crimes, or death penalty cases, or not prosecute steven mnuchin, or to LAUGH at the idea of incarcerating parents who fail to send their kids to school, etc. etc. yeah, maybe she wouldn't be here if she didn't take those positions. but whose problem is that? does it mean she can't be accountable for it just like anyone else? isn't there something fundamentally fucked about this reward system?

tipsy, i get that take you posted (only read the block pasted here). it reminded me of this post from kiese laymon.

"...But I hope all of us who know what Kamala, Cory and Barry did or had to do to be presidential in this country question also what we had to do to be hired, to be tenured, to not go to jail, to pay for our families' needs. It ain't the same thing, ain't same scale, but in dissing and critiquing folk who need critique as anti-black public servants, I hope we also critique the varied ways we satisfy, titillate and bargain with white power in order to eat. We can do both. I teach at a school called Ole Miss and not a school called Jackson State because a school called Ole Miss pays me more, though a school called Jackson State raised me and loved my mama, father, aunties and cousin. All critiques of these feckless politicians have to start there."

But the window dressing itself matters. It's not sufficient, but it's also not insignificant.

Can't it also be actively harmful - using representation to avoid substantive change?

i.e. the Silicon Valley Way

there is no black consensus to be reached, after the black community has the discussion, on whether kamala harris's career is good or can be excused or whatever.

Yeah, and if you read that post she's not asserting any Black consensus.

Can't it also be actively harmful - using representation to avoid substantive change?

It's not that simple. Does having one POC on the board of a Fortune 500 company change anything substantive about how the company treats its workers or the policies it advocates for? Not necessarily. Is it better than having no POC members? Almost certainly.

I've seen this dynamic in real life. Even people hired or appointed as tokens don't necessarily stay tokens. I've seen issues raised and perspectives brought to bear — on governmental bodies, in behind closed doors meetings — that absolutely would not have been if it had been a room full of white guys.

Is it better than having no POC members? Almost certainly.

I'm not disagreeing with you tipsy, but the problem is defining what is "better" is rather difficult (and achieving consensus on it maybe impossible). For one thing, it might not actually be "better" for the individual person of color.

representation matters and any Lefty who says “nah” is generally, imo, not to be trusted. I just think there’s a real danger that Democrats/ liberals can fall into with the whole “we👏need👏more👏trans👏bipoc👏ICE agents”, etc

I don’t think of a POC on a corporate board as window dressing - that sounded more to me like using POC in public-facing roles (or as stars of a show or whatever) to obscure the all-white corporation and shareholders behind it.

That’s the kind of representation I see being dismissed out of hand.

good post, sic. this is good criticism, the kind that can be responded to, rests on some sort of assertion, and has a point.

cheers km, unfortunately I have to cancel myself bcz these are actually repeated points I have made before itt *evaporates*

if you separate out all the repeated points maybe the entire thread can *evaporate* hmm

lol well no one's perfect, and sometimes repetition is important for forgetful people like me :)

anyway, i didn't mean to single you out too much, i just think there has been some really good biden criticisms in this thread and some extremely bad, tedious kinds of criticism, and i was trying to gently highlight the kind that is more effective

xp

I just think there’s a real danger that Democrats/ liberals can fall into with the whole “we👏need👏more👏trans👏bipoc👏ICE agents”

Who on this board has said anything remotely like this? ffs gabbneb doesn't post here anymore

And yes, I'm going to take very personally arguments that simultaneously deny the worth of my existence and blame me for not making enough money to protect myself from racism, which is how jim in vancouver come across to me and why I say he is peak white-duding

resumptive Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden called Thursday for an immediate nationwide mask mandate that would require everyone in the country to wear masks when outside for the next three months.

Doing so will save the lives of at least 40,000 people, he said in brief remarks in Delaware that followed a lengthy briefing on the coronavirus crisis.

“Every single American should be wearing a mask when they’re outside for the next three months at a minimum,” Biden said, emphasizing each word. “Every governor should mandate it.”

think it's worth mentioning that if biden was president during this cycle, hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved. seems important

that's true of basically every/any democrat tbf

Who on this board has said anything remotely like this? ffs gabbneb doesn't post here anymore

I can’t say it’s never happened,
But not every post I make is a passive aggressive shot at someone else here. I think the ppl here are generally pretty on the level, esp compared w the wider social media verse.

that's true of basically every/any democrat tbf

it's probably even true of Herman Cain tbtda

i just think there has been some really good biden criticisms in this thread and some extremely bad, tedious kinds of criticism

101% get why some ppl are annoyed by eg. much of milo's venting, but shouting at eg. him to stop posting about Biden in the Biden thread is far more tedious and takes up much more space, so