Ongoing U.S Police Brutality and Corruption Discussion Thread

To be honest, everyone on ILX should watch that ^^^

Obviously, Black people are not a monolith, which Ms. Jones acknowledges.

But I'm tired of people, even well-meaning people whom I know and respect like you, Sarahell, talking about how 7-11s and QDobas shouldn't be destroyed during protests.

I agree with Ms. Jones. Let it burn.

boy, is that itself stupid and short-sighted and privileged.

You going to back any of those needless insults up, or are you just going to leave them there?

if a neighborhood loses the only place to get anything close to fresh food, who in the world does that benefit? if a neighborhood loses one of the few places for employment in a depressed neighborhood, who does that benefit? It's terrible that there are few alternatives, but I'm not sure how burning everything down helps anyone.

your devotion to hypothetical situations is very convincing

I have no idea what that means. Last I saw somebody came out anti-burning down convenience stores, and someone came out pro. And I'm sorry, I'm not usually one to intentionally insult or even try to insult anyone on this board. It's just that I'm not a fan of burn everything down. if the entire west side of Chicago burst into flames right now that wouldn't directly affect me at all. but it would directly affect every single person who lives there. Thats my privilege.

And that's not a hypothetical situation. that is literally what I read in interviews after the first protests here in May. people who no longer had a place to shop, people who no longer had a place to work. people with names, ages, addresses.

The problem is that it isn't just merely "terrible," much of what you speak of is by design— even if they're franchises, huge corporations that exist in poorer Black neighborhoods are there to exploit their workers and exploit those who have few other options. They're not beneficent or beneficial except to a very very small number of their workers, and they create tons and tons of cash for their corporate coffers. Looting them and burning them down is an example of taking what should rightfully be free, anyway, and showing displeasure at the state of a world where such vampiric corporations are seen as net positives as they suck the life out of communities.

At least where I am, it's not like the local bodegas got hit in riots— it was the corporate pharmacies and grocery stores, along with shoe stores and similar. Do I give a fuck about a Foot Locker just because it pays some people in the community a sub-par wage? Not really.

just need to point out that you're generalizing from already general accounts from media that have a bias. i'd be curious to read follow-up pieces on how these people are getting by now after .. not having a place to shop. i mean presumably that didn't kill them, although one might think it had based on the note of hysteria in your tone. xp

FWIW, this is what my friend wrote back in May (the same friend who was just documenting that racist asshole murdering people in Kenosha):

I’m standing outside a Dollar Tree on Chicago’s West Side. Looters stripped it of its inventory all day. Then they torched it.

Unlike most late-night scenes like this I’ve covered this week as a journalist, this one lacks the frantic energy we’ve seen in pictures, and there’s no public chorus condemning the killing of George Floyd. Instead, people stand numbed. Their eyes follow firefighters coiling hoses back on the trucks and the police officers climbing into a city bus to move on to the next ruin.

Since last weekend, when looting spread from the downtown business district to pockets of Chicago, I’ve tracked reactions on social media, largely by white friends safely tucked at home, away from the consequences of destruction. To my surprise, many romanticized the looting, saying it’s just their black neighbors raging against society’s sins that go back centuries. Two nights earlier I had posted photos of a hair salon’s storefront, shattered by bricks during a riot in Uptown. One friend said she understood the distraught owner’s frustration, but hey, she has insurance, and she should really appreciate the larger struggle.

Then there was that meme circulating for days that suggests if you are outraged by looting, you couldn’t possibly be outraged by the death of George Floyd.

No. You can be outraged by both. Looting is a destroyer in these neighborhoods. I agree that Gucci can rebuild. And Gucci customers can move on. But you know who can’t? Jerry Winfrey, 54, the caretaker for his mother. The Dollar Tree looting and fire now means he has nowhere to buy groceries. He has no car. The nearest Jewel might as well be on Mars. “Can’t go to the grocery store no more,” he says. With Dollar Tree gone, “it’s gonna be rough.”

“It’s a tragedy. It’s horrible, destroying things we need,” he says.

You know who agrees? Tamara Collins, 34, who worked as the manager of the Dollar Tree for three years. Tonight she’s jobless. The store employed 15 people. “Now we can’t feed our kids,” she says.

Collins and some of her co-workers snap photos to take home memories. On the steps of nearby gray stones are neighbors. They stare too. The sadness on that block is so thick, it’s unbearable.

Winfrey’s right. This whole thing is a tragedy, has zero to do with Floyd’s tragic killing, and it’s aggravating to listen to armchair liberals reciting abstract social theories that conclude what’s good for the impoverished in our city. Real life is more complex than fits a meme. Or that think piece in Salon you’re sharing that got your echo chamber giving you mega “likes” on your social media page.

The next time you share that meme and bang out a post proclaiming how looting and destruction benefits society because — Who? Trump? The mayor? Santa Claus? — is going to learn a lesson about the suffering of people, why don’t you drive to Chicago and Homan avenues on the West Side and ask the people who are actually suffering? Guarantee they’ll give you a different story.

I'll hit him up and ask him about any follow up, because I am generally curious as well.

Rending your garments over Wendy's getting burned down and pointing to others 'privilege' is just magnificient.

In Philly, most of the places that got fucked up are open again, with notable exceptions— the Lowe's near us that got hit is still closed, from what I can tell, but that place got super fucked up.

well for one thing that's terrible writing cherry-picking quotes to back its obvious agenda. xxo

Exactly. Did your friend interview anyone who felt differently? That was a news article, or an opinion piece?

Sarahell, to categorize the protestors as white, even in a significant way, seems to be playing into an outside agitators narrative that has been proven false again and again and again.

regardless of what has been proven, and whether the narrative is false, there are people in the black community (and esp. the local Asian community) who believe that narrative. And, it's one thing for people who live in neighborhoods to autonomously burn it down, it's a bit different when white people do it. ... which I have seen. Do I think it's as atrocious as the right-wingers and centrists do? No. Is it worse than cops killing black people? No. But to deny that it doesn't happen is absurd. Like, yeah, that white bro walking up my street with a looted desk lamp from Target happened. The handful of white bros yelling to one another to grab a six-pack of Racer 5 from the 7-11 at the corner of my block, that happened. Like, way to go, white bro, presumably you are demonstrating your privilege that if the security cameras caught you, your life probably won't be as fucked as a black person doing the same thing.

would you characterize these white bros as hipsters though?

Not getting into this with you. Most of what I've seen and heard about re: looting has been pretty equal opportunity, and pinning it on privileged white people just doesn't match up with all that. Rarely has.

My friend's piece was in fact an OpEd, so yeah, opinion.

Per privilege, I was just responding in turn to one of you folks calling out sarahell (who doesn't need my help defending herself) for the same. If these neighborhoods and stores burn, my privilege is that I don't have to deal with the fallout. There have been a few community counter protests in recent weeks here sort of saying the same thing. (I think I've posted a few?) Namely, people come in, do their thing, then leave, and the people living there have to deal with whatever they've left behind. Because yeah, there is no protester monolith. Different people are there for different reasons, with different aims and levels of commitment. But the majority of people of every stripe are just citizens on the sidelines.

I dunno, I just think "let it burn" is nihilistic. Whether it's ultimately productive is not for me to say, and I can't claim to have any solution to the systemic racism that has left entire neighborhoods in tatters.

Honestly, to me, the property damage is just a facet of letting off steam/anger and the excitement of being part of a movement, and also the anonymity that comes with that. It's human nature, and it tends to coincide with masculinity. ... It is similar to the shit people do when their team wins/loses the big game. It does feel less pointless when done in the name of anti-racism than anti-whatever-the-team-the-Raiders-lost-to-that-year. Idk, I guess I'm also coming from the view that capitalism will just continue to do its thing. They will either re-open the Targets or they won't.

Yeah, I mean, a general strike or work stoppage would probably get more results than setting something on fire. But that takes organization and resources that don't really exist right now, afaict.

It just kinda seems like people having different priorities and/or mindsets about change and activism. Some people want to be more comfortable while doing it, and others are more willing to sacrifice the Wendy's for the greater good. I just get tired of purity competitions and shaming people (on both sides of the property damage issue) for "not doing activism right". It ends up being divisive and things don't get done.

i sort of feel like that argument comes from a place that doesn't understand the depth of the wound. like the buildings or businesses are a pebbles compared to the weight of a mountain.

maybe I've just been watching too many documentaries about Reconstruction up until the Civil Rights era, and in that history, the right to own property and to have autonomy over that property, to own a business (even if it's a corporate franchise) and to have access to the "nice things" that white people have (e.g. safe and sanitary housing, schools, etc.) is also part of that wound that is racism.

table -- did I or anyone else tell you the story about the Haram pig mural?

as in, the story of the Haram pig mural is classic capitalist recuperation ... enabled by the absurd disorganization and incompetence of Oakland bureaucracy

No, I don't know about the pig mural!

I think that in regards to burning and looting, yes it's nihilistic...but so are the often huge corporate chains that are being looted and burned.

Acts of rage committed against property are often attempts to dispossess and disenfranchise a social order that has dispossessed and disenfranchised people. That some of these people get hurt by the consequences of those acts of rage is unfortunate, but nowhere near as unfortunate as the initial dispossession and disenfranchisement. To treat them as the same is ludicrous, IMHO. (And here, I am talking mostly to Josh, not you, Sarahell)

I dunno, I just think "let it burn" is nihilistic. Whether it's ultimately productive is not for me to say, and I can't claim to have any solution to the systemic racism that has left entire neighborhoods in tatters.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, August 28, 2020 2:34 PM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Of course it's nihilistic! That's the whole point: what has society given them to believe in.

?

If all that is between you and the abyss is a Wendy's and a Dollar Store . . .

Man, this is the most mentions of Wendy's I have seen in years.

this just makes me think of all the sports idiots being like "ok you're upset, but WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP HUH? HUH?" All this fallacious bullshit re causation and intent... have you ever been so mad that you broke something valuable to you? what was the purpose of throwing my cell phone across the room after a bad argument 15+ years ago?

sorry, i'm out

"act your age, young man!"

You can understand why people commit cathartic acts of destruction without trying to claim that they are helpful to anyone. I don't know who it was upthread that wrote that violence only causes change when it is against the protestors, but they were otm.

Oh Obamapaws

LeBron James led small group of players who sought advice of Barack Obama on Wednesday, and the former President offered them guidance to continue playing with plan of action.

Full details on @TheAthleticNBA: https://t.co/nFCCvmFjgo

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) August 28, 2020

I'm wondering if the fact that the 17yo Kenosha shooter called a friend between the first and the second/third shootings will undermine a self-defense strategy. Not sure of the timing/proximity, but I might argue that if he had time to call a friend, he wasn't in fear of his life.

Couldn't he just say he was asking his friend for help?

there's two ways to take it

that the fact that a gun could kill people didn't seem real until he actually pulled a trigger and watched a real man die, so he was freaking out to his friend on the phone.

the other angle is he was calling to brag.

either way, fuck him forever.

My understanding is that the argument in self-defense is that the perp had a reasonable fear for their life such that they are allowed to use reasonable force (which could include lethal force) in order to protect themselves. For many years and in most states, the law was that you could not argue self-defense if you had a reasonably safe alternative to using force, such as the ability to retreat in a reasonably safe manner. This is why some states have enacted "stand your ground" laws: it removes the ability of the prosecutor to argue that the perp had a reasonable opportunity to retreat instead of using force. In other words, in stand your ground states there is no duty to retreat even if it is safe and reasonable to do so.

I don't have all of the specific facts, but let's assume the Kenosha Kid has an argument he shot the first person in self-defense. My understanding is immediately after that, he ran away and was able to call his friend while retreating. I might argue that his ability to grab his phone and make a call while retreating obviates the self-defense argument (i.e. fuckface had the reasonable opportunity to keep retreating instead of shooting victims #2 and #3).

NB, I am not a criminal attorney.

I just want to know how you claim self-defense with a straight face when you've crossed state lines specifically so you can prowl a heated public gathering with an assault rifle.

I guaranty he's going to claim self-defense and depending on the jury he might succeed.

Then get ready for more riots.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/caravan-trump-supporters-rallies-oregons-014641067.html

i'm sure they're gonna run with this.

i ain't shedding a damn tear as I'm sure it was provoked

https://www.yahoo.com/news/caravan-trump-supporters-rallies-oregons-014641067.html🕸

i'm sure they're gonna run with this.

i ain't shedding a damn tear as I'm sure it was provoked

https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-defends-challenge-coins-dubbing-east-flatbush-precinct-fort-jah

maya lau has been a crime reporter for a long time, but is now doing deeper dives on criminal justice more generally at the la times. this is a solid piece imo and (unusually for a US newpaper) doesn't suffer from "view from nowhere" both sidesism despite being in the news section. low bar! but in any case it's a good article.

The public relations machine within police departments -- paid for by taxpayers -- has wide influence in shaping the public narrative. Which videos get released by police, and which do not? My latest: https://t.co/yKIwnyQKUV

— Maya Lau 🦅 (@mayalau) August 30, 2020

there are so many good articles in the LA Times lately, ended up having to subscribe

cool good job

So the world knows, they just adjourned. Without mention of the bills that were introduced. Thirty seconds. They didn’t even try to fix the problems. They didn’t even give the people of Wisconsin the courtesy of a debate. https://t.co/zxWUnIR2B9

— Mandela Barnes (@TheOtherMandela) August 31, 2020

in LA this afternoon

Started with a bike violation, ended with the deputies killing him. We could save so many lives if we took vehicle and pedestrian stops away from armed officers. Instead we pay them six figures each to do this all day long. https://t.co/Lw2cdfVJTv pic.twitter.com/xNQnDPXETS

— Hayes Davenport (@hayesdavenport) September 1, 2020

During the contact, a fight ensued between the suspect and deputies.  The suspect produced a handgun and a deputy-involved “hit” shooting occurred.  The suspect’s handgun was recovered.  The suspect was pronounced deceased at the scene.

— LA County Sheriffs (@LASDHQ) September 1, 2020

why do they talk like this?
why did they pull over a guy on a bicycle for a vehicle code violation?
and "produced a handgun" has become this in the hours that followed

SOUTH LA UPDATE: LASD says fatal shooting occurred after man punched an officer and a handgun was spotted in clothing items he dropped to the ground https://t.co/heTlZ74IoQ

— ABC7 Eyewitness News (@ABC7) September 1, 2020

case study for the maya lau article i linked yesterday.