Ongoing U.S Police Brutality and Corruption Discussion Thread

Not getting into this with you. Most of what I've seen and heard about re: looting has been pretty equal opportunity, and pinning it on privileged white people just doesn't match up with all that. Rarely has.

My friend's piece was in fact an OpEd, so yeah, opinion.

Per privilege, I was just responding in turn to one of you folks calling out sarahell (who doesn't need my help defending herself) for the same. If these neighborhoods and stores burn, my privilege is that I don't have to deal with the fallout. There have been a few community counter protests in recent weeks here sort of saying the same thing. (I think I've posted a few?) Namely, people come in, do their thing, then leave, and the people living there have to deal with whatever they've left behind. Because yeah, there is no protester monolith. Different people are there for different reasons, with different aims and levels of commitment. But the majority of people of every stripe are just citizens on the sidelines.

I dunno, I just think "let it burn" is nihilistic. Whether it's ultimately productive is not for me to say, and I can't claim to have any solution to the systemic racism that has left entire neighborhoods in tatters.

Honestly, to me, the property damage is just a facet of letting off steam/anger and the excitement of being part of a movement, and also the anonymity that comes with that. It's human nature, and it tends to coincide with masculinity. ... It is similar to the shit people do when their team wins/loses the big game. It does feel less pointless when done in the name of anti-racism than anti-whatever-the-team-the-Raiders-lost-to-that-year. Idk, I guess I'm also coming from the view that capitalism will just continue to do its thing. They will either re-open the Targets or they won't.

Yeah, I mean, a general strike or work stoppage would probably get more results than setting something on fire. But that takes organization and resources that don't really exist right now, afaict.

It just kinda seems like people having different priorities and/or mindsets about change and activism. Some people want to be more comfortable while doing it, and others are more willing to sacrifice the Wendy's for the greater good. I just get tired of purity competitions and shaming people (on both sides of the property damage issue) for "not doing activism right". It ends up being divisive and things don't get done.

i sort of feel like that argument comes from a place that doesn't understand the depth of the wound. like the buildings or businesses are a pebbles compared to the weight of a mountain.

maybe I've just been watching too many documentaries about Reconstruction up until the Civil Rights era, and in that history, the right to own property and to have autonomy over that property, to own a business (even if it's a corporate franchise) and to have access to the "nice things" that white people have (e.g. safe and sanitary housing, schools, etc.) is also part of that wound that is racism.

table -- did I or anyone else tell you the story about the Haram pig mural?

as in, the story of the Haram pig mural is classic capitalist recuperation ... enabled by the absurd disorganization and incompetence of Oakland bureaucracy

No, I don't know about the pig mural!

I think that in regards to burning and looting, yes it's nihilistic...but so are the often huge corporate chains that are being looted and burned.

Acts of rage committed against property are often attempts to dispossess and disenfranchise a social order that has dispossessed and disenfranchised people. That some of these people get hurt by the consequences of those acts of rage is unfortunate, but nowhere near as unfortunate as the initial dispossession and disenfranchisement. To treat them as the same is ludicrous, IMHO. (And here, I am talking mostly to Josh, not you, Sarahell)

I dunno, I just think "let it burn" is nihilistic. Whether it's ultimately productive is not for me to say, and I can't claim to have any solution to the systemic racism that has left entire neighborhoods in tatters.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, August 28, 2020 2:34 PM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Of course it's nihilistic! That's the whole point: what has society given them to believe in.

?

If all that is between you and the abyss is a Wendy's and a Dollar Store . . .

Man, this is the most mentions of Wendy's I have seen in years.

this just makes me think of all the sports idiots being like "ok you're upset, but WHAT'S THE NEXT STEP HUH? HUH?" All this fallacious bullshit re causation and intent... have you ever been so mad that you broke something valuable to you? what was the purpose of throwing my cell phone across the room after a bad argument 15+ years ago?

sorry, i'm out

"act your age, young man!"

You can understand why people commit cathartic acts of destruction without trying to claim that they are helpful to anyone. I don't know who it was upthread that wrote that violence only causes change when it is against the protestors, but they were otm.

Oh Obamapaws

LeBron James led small group of players who sought advice of Barack Obama on Wednesday, and the former President offered them guidance to continue playing with plan of action.

Full details on @TheAthleticNBA: https://t.co/nFCCvmFjgo

— Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) August 28, 2020

I'm wondering if the fact that the 17yo Kenosha shooter called a friend between the first and the second/third shootings will undermine a self-defense strategy. Not sure of the timing/proximity, but I might argue that if he had time to call a friend, he wasn't in fear of his life.

Couldn't he just say he was asking his friend for help?

there's two ways to take it

that the fact that a gun could kill people didn't seem real until he actually pulled a trigger and watched a real man die, so he was freaking out to his friend on the phone.

the other angle is he was calling to brag.

either way, fuck him forever.

My understanding is that the argument in self-defense is that the perp had a reasonable fear for their life such that they are allowed to use reasonable force (which could include lethal force) in order to protect themselves. For many years and in most states, the law was that you could not argue self-defense if you had a reasonably safe alternative to using force, such as the ability to retreat in a reasonably safe manner. This is why some states have enacted "stand your ground" laws: it removes the ability of the prosecutor to argue that the perp had a reasonable opportunity to retreat instead of using force. In other words, in stand your ground states there is no duty to retreat even if it is safe and reasonable to do so.

I don't have all of the specific facts, but let's assume the Kenosha Kid has an argument he shot the first person in self-defense. My understanding is immediately after that, he ran away and was able to call his friend while retreating. I might argue that his ability to grab his phone and make a call while retreating obviates the self-defense argument (i.e. fuckface had the reasonable opportunity to keep retreating instead of shooting victims #2 and #3).

NB, I am not a criminal attorney.

I just want to know how you claim self-defense with a straight face when you've crossed state lines specifically so you can prowl a heated public gathering with an assault rifle.

I guaranty he's going to claim self-defense and depending on the jury he might succeed.

Then get ready for more riots.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/caravan-trump-supporters-rallies-oregons-014641067.html

i'm sure they're gonna run with this.

i ain't shedding a damn tear as I'm sure it was provoked

https://www.yahoo.com/news/caravan-trump-supporters-rallies-oregons-014641067.html🕸

i'm sure they're gonna run with this.

i ain't shedding a damn tear as I'm sure it was provoked

https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-defends-challenge-coins-dubbing-east-flatbush-precinct-fort-jah

maya lau has been a crime reporter for a long time, but is now doing deeper dives on criminal justice more generally at the la times. this is a solid piece imo and (unusually for a US newpaper) doesn't suffer from "view from nowhere" both sidesism despite being in the news section. low bar! but in any case it's a good article.

The public relations machine within police departments -- paid for by taxpayers -- has wide influence in shaping the public narrative. Which videos get released by police, and which do not? My latest: https://t.co/yKIwnyQKUV

— Maya Lau 🦅 (@mayalau) August 30, 2020

there are so many good articles in the LA Times lately, ended up having to subscribe

cool good job

So the world knows, they just adjourned. Without mention of the bills that were introduced. Thirty seconds. They didn’t even try to fix the problems. They didn’t even give the people of Wisconsin the courtesy of a debate. https://t.co/zxWUnIR2B9

— Mandela Barnes (@TheOtherMandela) August 31, 2020

in LA this afternoon

Started with a bike violation, ended with the deputies killing him. We could save so many lives if we took vehicle and pedestrian stops away from armed officers. Instead we pay them six figures each to do this all day long. https://t.co/Lw2cdfVJTv pic.twitter.com/xNQnDPXETS

— Hayes Davenport (@hayesdavenport) September 1, 2020

During the contact, a fight ensued between the suspect and deputies.  The suspect produced a handgun and a deputy-involved “hit” shooting occurred.  The suspect’s handgun was recovered.  The suspect was pronounced deceased at the scene.

— LA County Sheriffs (@LASDHQ) September 1, 2020

why do they talk like this?
why did they pull over a guy on a bicycle for a vehicle code violation?
and "produced a handgun" has become this in the hours that followed

SOUTH LA UPDATE: LASD says fatal shooting occurred after man punched an officer and a handgun was spotted in clothing items he dropped to the ground https://t.co/heTlZ74IoQ

— ABC7 Eyewitness News (@ABC7) September 1, 2020

case study for the maya lau article i linked yesterday.

I wonder what cops think about "the bad ones are chokers under pressure" as a face-saving story.

They do choke, it is true

It was awkward with Engram interrupting to try to stop him from saying it, but it was such a bad analogy to compare an unarmed man getting shot 7 times in the back to missing a 3 foot putt, that the cops could easily take it as a Q-esque secret message that the real choking was that they didn't manage to kill Jacob Blake.

Another choke, technically an asphyxiation: https://apnews.com/5c2f0cf366e560b7f41ebb3c964b099c

https://gothamist.com/news/video-pro-trump-counterprotesters-received-nypd-escort-driving-through-black-lives-matter-march

Have we been talking about the outright coup in Portsmouth, Virginia?

that's a crazy story i was completely unaware of! all hell is breaking loose everywhere, it feels impossible to keep up.

https://www.pilotonline.com/government/local/vp-nw-portsmouth-lucas-history-20200822-theoupptlfh4pomdqhhc3loxnu-story.html

sounds like the police chief of portsmouth was just removed today.

Portland shooting suspect shot dead by US Marshals as he ran away from them
https://www.theolympian.com/news/local/crime/article245485220.html

^ not sure if mentioned in another thread. Impossible to keep up indeed.

https://www.statesman.com/news/20200810/austin-police-department-seeing-more-officers-leave?fbclid=IwAR2y7P9HjesrlqOM_-uSzbxGVaPUZc1LwH41ZkD6dmTGaQH02KHUKw-hW9g

Too bad it would take decades for them to abolish themselves.

shine the sicnal

fbclid
identity
Capital I
lower-case w
capital A R
Two!
lower y, seven P 9
Upper H
lower j e s r l q!
upper O M
underscore hyphen!
fuck i'm exhausted
sic! siiiiiiiiiiiic!

it was always burnin since the worlds been turnin

Police shoot, nearly killed 13 year old autistic boy having a mental health crisis. Mother says she explicitly told police he was unarmed. Somehow this gets relayed to police as he was “making threats ... with a weapon.”https://t.co/FVxNfOsAS0

— Radley Balko (@radleybalko) September 8, 2020

no words. and the police will clear themselves, as always.

Sadly, one of our officers had a bad experience @AceHardware store in Allston today. While in the store, an employee stated, “I smell bacon.” When the officer asked for an apology, he was told there’d be none. In response, items purchased were returned and a customer lost. pic.twitter.com/ULodBWpiJy

— Boston Police Patrolmen's Association (BPPA) (@BostonPatrolmen) September 9, 2020

lol fried'um