Instances where you can't separate the art from the artist. vs. instances where you can.

for an artist that wrote 'catholic block' ffs

it's natural I think for big SY fans to feel a little stung by the whole thing. I just have a problem putting him on the same level of an R Kelly or Bill Cosby.

― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, September 25, 2020 1:56 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

No, they're not really not in the same league at all, but I can understand the situation similarly affecting one's ability to separate art from artist nonetheless.

I'm not at all disturbed by the Moore-Gordon fracas because I didn't care about them as people and their iconicity anyway, and I love Sonic Youth.

You would get laughed out of the room in many a culture if adultery was a dealbreaker for you when considering which artists you follow or not. I find the Puritanism itt deeply unsettling tbh. Like I’ve stepped into a parallel universe or something.

― sock solipsist (pomenitul), Friday, September 25, 2020 2:06 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think you might be projecting the puritanism you're perceiving itt.

FWIW, the purview of the thread title on its own doesn't necessitate judgment at all.

like i personally believe cheating is wrong but i don't know the details of the personal relationship pact that was breached there (beyond zomg they were married) and i'm not really that interested in what that was / it's none of my business. cheating is imperfect behavior that deserves some privacy imo - abuse and misogyny on the other hand need to be made very public.

I consider the line to be a personal one, one that I personally have changed quite a bit in the past few years. There are shades and degrees. I get it.

That said, there are some things that I will honestly think less of you as a person if you support them (and before it is asked, if someone thinks less of me because I draw a line a particular place, I don't care - my days of wanting to please everyone are long gone - so it's perfectly fine if someone doesn't care about my feelings about them). I consider those things to be really obvious - if you are an enthusiastic supporter of Skrewdriver, proudly wear Burzum shirts, or rep for Ted Nugent's bufoonery, at best I think you're missing the plot; at worst you're just a piece of shit.

if you are an enthusiastic supporter of Skrewdriver, proudly wear Burzum shirts, or rep for Ted Nugent's bufoonery

have you ever met a real person who is one of these people you refer to?

2xp map otfm

FWIW, the SY sitch (and people's reactions to it) is a little more complex than simply 'OMG, can you believe a dude in a band cheated on his partner'.

cheating is imperfect behavior that deserves some privacy imo

I'm not an SY fan and none of it affects me - but Kim has made it public (I've read her accounting of the circumstances in an interview blurb or something); so if folks choose to weigh that in how they see Thurston, and you argue against that, you're sort of "taking his side" (no?)

Calling the SY grievances itt "puritanism" totally ignores the specific context OL succinctly clarified upthread.

Not American and Protestant enough to get it, sorry. Peace.

have you ever met a real person who is one of these people you refer to?

I do not share any of Ted Nugent's political beliefs, but I like the albums he made between 1975 and 1980 quite a bit.

ok fair points. i can't recall much about the kim / thurston thing other than there was some underhanded and deceptive behavior but it wasn't an abusive situation. is that a fair summary? xp

lol to unperson.

I actually think a lot of burzum stuff kicks ass but while I could listen to burzum when I was a 20 year old (a 20 year old communist who hated nazis for sure, but very callow) I can't bring myself to listen to him now. like I'm not giving him plays on fucking Spotify.

also won't be listening to red house painters again.

but for some reason was singing "rock with you" in the shower the other day ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

have you ever met a real person who is one of these people you refer to?

I just posted a link to a YouTube video in the Rolling Metal thread a few weeks ago of a professional critic for a not unknown metal website that featured a prominent Burzum wall hanging in the background. But yeah, I still spot Burzum t-shirts in the wild. Now, how "proud" or knowing the wearer might be, I can't speak to, but they are out there.

saw a Burzum shirt in the wild a couple weeks ago

in general, I think it's easier for instrumental music and gets harder the more prominent confessional, personal lyrics and vocals are for the music.

Not American and Protestant enough to get it, sorry. Peace.

What's funny is this is sort of a cousin of that creepy line you see sometimes - "Hey, let go of your Protestant, American, middle-class hang-ups... just do this..."

god triad is so barf

I know, but I'm gonna put on Crown of Creation right now... it cracks me up when Grace sings it.

Chris Brown is one I feel slightly guilty liking so much, though am only headlines-aware of his abuse, what, a decade ago? If I see a "feat Chris Brown" track on an album, that's consistently a favorite. His acting ("Takers") impressed me, too. Whereas, oddly, Ariana Grande licked a donut and has forever lost my respect. She seems to be doing just fine without it, though.

I think Rolf Harris is maybe a perfect example of someone who has totally destroyed their own image. I'm not a fan and never intended to check him out though.

What's funny is this is sort of a cousin of that creepy line you see sometimes - "Hey, let go of your Protestant, American, middle-class hang-ups... just do this..."

Slippery slope much?

Unless someone provides solid evidence that Thurston Moore abused Kim Gordon in some way (in her memoir, Kim accuses him of being a coward for not initiating the divorce himself, which is… utterly banal), 'adultery' is a backwards charge that smacks of, yes, puritanism of the worst tabloid variety. It's none of our fucking business.

kozelek has a few earlier albums that meant something to me, and i still listen to them, but i have zero interest in hearing anything new from him (meaning like the last decade-plus)

none of the other prime examples are particularly important to me -- i would absolutely never buy a nugent or r. kelly record or otherwise contribute money to them, but 'stranglehold' is a great song and if it comes on the radio i'm not gonna turn it off

the thurston stuff is distasteful -- lots of people cheat, but doing it for years on end is pretty damn rude -- but whatever, really. i do kinda wonder how jim o'rourke feels about the whole thing tho

pom, people have parasocial relationships with musicians, they feel hurt by the person's behavior as if it were someone they knew. I don't get that perspective but it's how some people's brains work

Fair enough. I guess I don't get it either – artists are as fallible as the rest of us, sometimes even more so. And as far as shitty rock star behaviour goes, this is bottom-tier material at best.

I try not to think about Al Green beating his pregnant wife with a boot when I listen to Al Green, because I like listening to Al Green. But it happened. Should I try less hard?

When I can remember who made the record or what it's called. Or where I left it

It helps that I only expected diminishing returns from Burzum, Morrissey and Kozelek, made it easy to give them up. But I generally don't stop buying things by bad people.

FTR, only Austin actually used the term "adultery" when discussing the Thurston/Kim thing.

aiui the complication with the Sonic Youth situation is that Thurston drove another bandmember out of the group by having an affair with his girlfriend, years before the bandmember to whom Moore was married found out about the still-continuing affair

xp now named ^

At the time the Cosby stuff started coming out, I had been following

When it started coming out, or when Hannibal Buress was pointing out onstage that googling "bill cosby rapist" would bring up years of news stories about accusations and settlements?

have a lot of thoughts about this

sometimes knowing an artist is a huge shitbag before anything concrete comes out helps me sit better with being able to "separate" things, even though i also think it's really impossible to totally separate the artist from their actions and that all art contains some reflection of its maker's heart, so this exercise is also real theoretical and conflicted from the jump. kozelek made a few records that were the soundtrack to some of the most treasured moments in my life. as far as i'm concerned, he can't have those, so i'll always be able to listen to early rhp and sun kil moon on that level. (note: i haven't even tried to listen to either since the most recent reports came out, so maybe i won't be able to after all!) it feels cynical and shitty to say this but i feel like something will come out about stephan jenkins of third eye blind eventually and this will probably not disturb my ability to listen to the first few 3eb records because on some level i've always weighed my enjoyment of those records against stephan jenkins' personality, which is like what if a wall street sociopath got into music

then again i was an absolutely devoted brand new fan and thought i could maybe maintain the distance if a few years passed but nope. too many lyrics i can read back and think "he was singing about what he was doing... the entire time..."

sorry this feels really scattered bc it's really complicated

I'll admit I am maybe disproportionately upset about the Derrick May accusations, but that may just be because this sorta thing has finally come home to roost for me with an artist I really love. I dgaf about Kozelek, Burzum, Chris Brown, etc. I really enjoy the work of Cosby, Sonic Youth, R Kelly, Woody Allen, Gira, etc (not sure Miles Davis fits here, but him too), but I could live without them if I had to. Like if the doctor said "give up Snickers bars or be dead in six months," I'd give up Snickers bars. But I've spent untold hours listening to Derrick May. It'd be more like the doctor saying "give up coffee or be dead in six months." But I guess we all have our thresholds, right? I don't know, maybe because it's so recent, but this one really sucks for me

It may be instructive for people who still aren't getting the SY sitch to note that no one itt has said anything like 'I can't abide the creative work of adulterers!' It's a weirdly myopic truncation of the situation, it isn't being applied as a blanket judgment of artists across the board, and the thread topic is inherently subjective and not meant to be an imposition of values on anyone else itt.

I think people keep going back to Thurston because a) he was the second musician listed by name in the original post, and b) because his is very much a marginal case when put up against people like R Kelly, Bill Cosby and Woody Allen, no matter what your feelings are on the band or his personal life.

I definitely think it's unfair to lump Thurston in with actual abusers and the like, but I also have a bit of a disappointed/instinctive "bleurgh" reaction when my mates go see him or sign to his record label or hang out with him or whatever. I think it's more like when your parents split up and you find out your dad had an affair - no, it's not unpardonable, but you were personally invested in that relationship and dad totally fucked it up, the bastard!

But yeah, I think for people who didn't grow up with Kim & Thurston being Cool Mum & Dad, it's difficult to understand how anyone would care so much.

In a way, the thread topic is implicitly about the disconnect between internal and external manifestations of morality, so it only makes sense that it would veer too far in one direction (having an adverse reaction to an artist who cheated on their partner even though we all likely know and have forgiven someone in that situation) as it would in the other (continuing to enjoy the work of an artist who is an inarguably-monstruous human being).

Answering the thread question: generally I can still enjoy the works of someone that I encountered and enjoyed before I found out they were shitty (in whatever big or small way that rankles me).

The Smiths and the first couple of Morrissey solo singles are still fine (I enjoyed the 2004ish comeback singles a bit at the time, but he started talking more and more given the opportunity). I'd disregarded R Kelly for 15 years after not liking She's Got That Vibe, got drawn in by ILM enthusiasm circa Trapped In The Closet episodes being YSIed off Chicago radio, still find lots his 2005-2007 run of "featuring" singles thrilling if I hear them, but cut off listening completely once I bothered to read up on his court cases and the accounts of people who'd stopped working for him. I could still read and marvel at Brendan McCarthy's 1980s comics with Peter Milligan if I was in the mood, and love Mad Max Fury Road, but will not reread his Doctor Strange comic or Vic Fluro collab.

It's also generally easier to separate the artist when the art isn't a deliberate communication of their attitudes.

Wait, what the fug has Brendan McCarthy done?!

I definitely think it's unfair to lump Thurston in with actual abusers and the like, but I also have a bit of a disappointed/instinctive "bleurgh" reaction when my mates go see him or sign to his record label or hang out with him or whatever. I think it's more like when your parents split up and you find out your dad had an affair - no, it's not unpardonable, but you were personally invested in that relationship and dad totally fucked it up, the bastard!

― emil.y, Friday, September 25, 2020 4:06 PM (thirty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm

OL, I assume this is what sic is referring to:

https://mindlessones.com/2013/11/09/flashback-to-fever-brendan-mccarthy-race-and-seeing-whats-in-front-of-your-face/

Hitchcock got weird and creepy toward actresses IRL late in his career, and women get treated weirdly and creepily more and more in his later films. It feels clammier to watch women being strangled in Frenzy than to see two specific characters suffering from the psychological obsession of the lead in Vertigo. But yr also more likely to rewatch the imperial period films because they're better, not just because you know the director was sending murdered toys of his leads to their daughters.

wish I shared this same ability to assign blame in the failed marriages of total strangers, it seems almost like a superpower

the thurston thing makes me think he's kind of a jerk and affects me to the extent that it makes me less interested in checking out any of his solo work, but on the other hand it doesn't really change my feelings about the work he did as a member of SY

successful marriage imo, they had decades together and made loads of great art during their partnership

The one that has hit me recently is Avi Buffalo. I really loved that first album in a way I've loved little else in the past decade and in a way that has pretty much ruled out continued listens, because I bought into the romance of it and now that's utterly sullied.

https://pitchfork.com/news/avi-buffalo-accused-of-rape-by-former-bandmate-music-pulled-by-sub-pop/

Sorry, that makes it sound like I'm the victim, not Rebecca Coleman, but you know what I mean.

Only similar case for me is Crystal Castles but the fact Alice Glass is the singer makes them not so hard to carry on listening to (not that I do very often).

That is, my interest is earnest and not ghastly or lurid.

I'd never question that.

And yup, big figure in that poetry world (you'll have seen the bebr0wed posts - that's where I read about his poetry and found out) & moving over into something more establishment, the Eliotic Anglican thing - one book launch 'in conversation with' the ex-Archbishop of Canterbury.

I can't see myself reading the one I have (Ν1ght Off1ce) again - at best I'd just picking cerebrally or forensically at it, perpetually conscious of his actions (and getting repelled or annoyed by the little courtroom in my head). And there's plenty to read that doesn't involve swimming in this shit - Daniel otm.

I think there's another argument to be made that you should read it: that by depriving yourself of this incredible poetry that you believe you would really like, you'd be allowing this guy's crimes to drag the world down further, even if only slightly. And it sounds like it's relevant enough to your own writing that it's very possible it could genuinely have a positive impact on your work, so there's a potential ripple effect there.

Daniel OTM too, though - if reading it is going to make you sick to your stomach, obviously you shouldn't feel obligated to subject yourself to that.

My current thought is to put it aside, then pick it up if it ever feels right. If that doesn't happen in the next few years, I'll probably put it in a free bin.

y'know what? fuck talib kweli. wackass motherfucker. i can't believe i ever sought out that cretin's records.

what now

this?

https://jezebel.com/talib-kweli-is-suing-jezebel-over-emotional-distress-fo-1849390843

why jezebel and not twitter (or pitchfork or anyone else who covered this bullshit)?

wtf is the "certain women" is it just (trans- or general) misogyny or is he pointing at someone(s) specific there?

is there some projected embarrassment or guilt in the "you hurt me by describing my behaviour" or is it just ego and entitlement all the way down? morally (or legally) it shouldn't really matter either way

those lyrics are terrible and even just the act of citing them to prove (?) is unintentionally revealing I think

I didn't realize he's still screaming about that shit.

What a petulant, misogynist child.

nothing "new" i was just listening to some old reflection eternal stuff and it's all kind of gross knowing what we now know about his attitude towards women. he was so phony on those records. imagine if "brown skin lady" or "love language" came out now - he'd be rightfully taken to task for being a hypocrite.

why jezebel

because it's the one that has a feminine name and he's so blinded by x chromosome hatred tunnel vision that it was his only option.

(okay, that's speculation but doesn't seem like much of a stretch by now)

anyway.

He like all butthurt Maras weaponized his fanbase against the article writer and the lady on Twitter that he kept harassing on multiple platforms

Just want to point out that over the past few months we can add Normani and now Chloe Bailey into the list of "promising new r&b talents who will release singles with Chris Brown features" alongside Tinashe, Sevyn Streeter and K.Michelle. People say that he's been #cancelled, but he sold out a Glasgow venue that holds fourteen thousand people, and he's still being used in an attempt to rescue the flailing careers of less-successful upcoming artists. He might not be at Drake/Beyonce megastar levels like he could have potentially rose to, but he's nowhere near as disregarded as you would hope for him to be.

He just had a Grammy nomination for Best R&B Album, as well

(And apparently had a bad initial reaction to losing)

fuck Chris Brown with a weedwhacker

I always find it "amazing" when I run into people who think the Rihanna beating was his only transgression *and* that he has been trying to atone for this for years (nope). Overheard a heated conversation about him not long ago where a woman was (rightfully) talking about how ridiculous it is that he still has a career, and the man across from her, a fan, said "I think we have to ask ourselves at one point how long we're willing to shun someone for one act", and the woman about spit her drink out and said "ONE ACT?", and began listing just about every infraction he had committed, the rape accusations, the destroying of the dressing room, etc, and the guy literally appeared to have no knowledge of it.

I don't know HOW that's possible but.

tbh this one act and his lack of contrition for it was enough for me by itself anyway

I hope that conversation ended with everyone at the bar uppercutting that man

Or shunning him.

Liberal thread

Shut the fuck up

well that's us told

Liberal thread

― CerebralCaustic, Saturday, February 18, 2023 5:52 AM

OP here. am very relieved you made this clear because i was starting to worry folks might think i was becoming a fascist. PHEW — glad that's sorted!

altrenately—

Liberal thread

― CerebralCaustic, Saturday, February 18, 2023 5:52 AM

found chris brown's sock ya'll

"altrenately" is an alternate spelling kind of like color vs colour y'know.

we liberals are poor typists =(

xpost to beato/youtubers you dig:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnivNajzZ1E
fd signifier - "when you can't separate the art from the artist" (video essay, 2024)

(fd doesn't exclusively do music topics, but is excruciatingly otm when he does)

#onethread

sry that opening phrase should have been a link to here.