...Obviously I've had too much coffee today. So here's a good example of how not to integrate justice issues effectively:
THIS is the PETA #SuperBowl ad the @NFL apparently didn’t want you to see and pressured @FOXSports to snub. It envisions a world where respect is the right of every being and pays homage to Kaepernick and movements rejecting injustice. https://t.co/kD1osnKhuX #EndSpeciesism pic.twitter.com/clXzU79aZV— PETA (@peta) January 31, 2020
― locked in a death spiral of vindictive gatekeeping (viborg), Monday, 12 October 2020 21:29 (three years ago) link
What the fuck did I just watch
― Andrew Farrell, Monday, 12 October 2020 21:32 (three years ago) link
xp brisk_god is the only good Twitter account now
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Monday, 12 October 2020 21:32 (three years ago) link
saw some clips from the briejoy/virgil vs chomsky thing on whether to boycott biden, because i like to inflict pain on myself
― flopson, Tuesday, 13 October 2020 02:25 (three years ago) link
wait was it actually "vs"
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 03:11 (three years ago) link
Me and @briebriejoy argued with Noam Chomsky for an hour on the latest episode of @BadFaithPod. We won the argument. Listen here: https://t.co/ATPFCi0TyS pic.twitter.com/T34a5hkp3R— Virgil Hexas 🦇🦇🦇 (@virgiltexas) October 12, 2020
― flopson, Tuesday, 13 October 2020 03:14 (three years ago) link
oh for heaven's sake leave the old man alone
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 03:19 (three years ago) link
you would need to pay me at least a thousand dollars to listen to this
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 03:21 (three years ago) link
don't need to watch that when I can just read ILX politics threads
― Wayne Grotski (symsymsym), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 05:38 (three years ago) link
lol at Chomsky quietly dunking on Virgil and BJG and them claiming victory
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 13:58 (three years ago) link
I'm never going to listen to that pod or try to keep up with the Twitter discourse but I have doubts that "we won the argument" is serious.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:00 (three years ago) link
yeah it's an obvious joke
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:03 (three years ago) link
It’s a dumb joke
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:04 (three years ago) link
given how so many twitter comments are like "CHomsky is dead to me now"--I'm not sure if peope are getting the joke
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:29 (three years ago) link
people are not getting the joke
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:30 (three years ago) link
which is a little too irony-poisoned to be funny anyway
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:31 (three years ago) link
not sure if that means what i think it means but i posted it anyway in the spirit of what we're talking about
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:32 (three years ago) link
it's funny/weird to me that of all the chapos, Virgil is apparently the one staking out an ultraleft position on this, given his love of horserace wonk shit. Matt's take (assess the stakes incl ballot measures and the like, vote appropriately, but don't ascribe undue levels of meaning) typically much more sensible.
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:35 (three years ago) link
Noam OTM
pic.twitter.com/jpRYAo0GfE— Mangy Jay (@magi_jay) October 12, 2020
― jaymc, Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:40 (three years ago) link
rightward shift of the democratic party
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:44 (three years ago) link
like, from 1972?
... yes?
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:48 (three years ago) link
Which is more likely, these (as ever) vague unnamed masses saying that because of what Noam said, or because of one sentence in a tweet advertising the episode?
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:49 (three years ago) link
Is the Democratic Party of 2020 further right than they were in 2000, 2010?
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:49 (three years ago) link
About the same. Did you notice the likely President?
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:51 (three years ago) link
Agree Noam otm there but... Mangy Jay def not otm if they don’t think the Democratic Party has moved right on economic concerns in my lifetime
― A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:53 (three years ago) link
Grey is also OTM about leveraging votes and the endless parade of YOU CAN'T DO IT NOW enabling the worst impulses of the Democrats. The question is when to do it - most people seem to agree this isn't the time but you shouldn't write off the possibility of ever leveraging votes.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:55 (three years ago) link
Yeah, I'm sure Chomsky would agree that the party has swung right, he just takes different conclusions from how to act on that (and yeah I think he's right).
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:56 (three years ago) link
vague unnamed masses
ur officially banned from embedding tweets from centrist melts with four likes
― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 14:58 (three years ago) link
Wouldn't that be the definition of a concrete example as opposed to vague strawmanning?
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:01 (three years ago) link
The question is when to do it
Honestly, now would be a perfectly fine time to hold the Dems over a barrel in exchange for concrete demands - IF there was a left formation big enough to make it effective. But there really, really ain't yet.
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
― Boring, Maryland, Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:15 (three years ago) link
yeah, running Bernie in the primaries pushed the party leftward. Not sure withholding votes from Biden is going to do anything except piss people off.
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:20 (three years ago) link
pushed (some of) the party *rhetoric* leftward. any more than that is TBD.
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:21 (three years ago) link
How many votes can be leveraged in a general election? I’m not feeling it’s a significant amount at this juncture?
How many votes does it take to win a modern election? I'd say Ralph Nader 2000 vs 2004 gives an idea of an easily swayable percentage of 'progressives.'
This is where one of the melts in the early primary thread would say that if the left starts withholding its votes what's to stop moderates from doing the smae - and, yeah, that's the game isn't it? Seems like an actual system of compromise and coalition building instead of just moderate policies and screaming at the left.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:23 (three years ago) link
Bernie in the primary and the existence of the Squad are not evidence that the party has been pushed leftward. Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer are still going to be the three most powerful Democrats in January.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:25 (three years ago) link
Seems instructive that the party apparatus was more than happy to gut everyone else running in order to ensure the victory of a doddering old sex pest centrist over Bernie - a decision that, if not for COVID, may well have given us four more years of Trump.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:30 (three years ago) link
Things are totally different. You used to have guys like Evan Bayh as the future of the party. Now you have gay Evan Bayh as the future of the party.
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Tuesday, 13 October 2020 15:40 (three years ago) link
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Tuesday, October 13, 2020 10:00 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, October 13, 2020 10:03 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
in the clips i saw they argued very earnestly
― flopson, Wednesday, 14 October 2020 05:11 (three years ago) link
“Declaring victory” is the joke, not the discussion.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 05:13 (three years ago) link
the 11th hour argument with a nonagenarian is the embarrassing part
― flopson, Wednesday, 14 October 2020 05:20 (three years ago) link
Chomsky appears willing to appear on any podcast that invites him and argue with randoms, it might be his reason for living.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 05:25 (three years ago) link
The "leverage votes" claim is bullshit. The Briana Joy Grays and Virgil Texases of the world are not part of any organized or meaningful effort to leverage a specific block of votes in exchange for specific concessions, they're just resentful. The democrats are not going to make concessions to a handful of podcast-listening randos who don't like that Bernie lost and might not show up at the polls even if Biden does add x to his platform and probably won't even pay attention to what's in his platform anyway. I don't think they understand what "leverage" actually means. You can't leverage vague dissatisfaction.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 15:14 (three years ago) link
no lies detected
― it bangs for thee (Simon H.), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 15:24 (three years ago) link
part of the Bernie strategy was the idea that there were all of these dissatisfied non-voters out there who could be transformed into voters if their economic concerns were addressed. This did not occur as yet. THe message the Democratic party takes from this is that they need to focus on people who actually vote.
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 15:44 (three years ago) link
he "leverage votes" claim is bullshit. The Briana Joy Grays and Virgil Texases of the world are not part of any organized or meaningful effort to leverage a specific block of votes in exchange for specific concessions,
It's a strategy that has never actually been tried by the left - Gray and Texas are probably not the people to do this but that doesn't mean it's not a potential future strategy.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 17:34 (three years ago) link
I'm not sure it's "never actually been tried by the left." Depends on what you mean by "the left" and "never." Left-leaning unions have certainly done it, for example. Also depends on whether you are speaking about presidential elections or more broadly. The point is you need an organization, not just atmospheric discontent. DSA is a great example of an organization that has meaningfully leveraged political support for candidates, they just don't do it for non-left candidates, which is an understandable and wise choice based on allocation of limited resources.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 18:04 (three years ago) link
Yes, you need an organization like the DSA to be a negotiating body. That doesn't make Gray and Texas talking about future strategy or the failures of Voting Blue No Matter Who - such as actually making use of that organization - "bullshit."
There is also a difference between endorsements, as the DSA has done, and withholding votes as a bloc. As above - the percentage needed to swing a national election is not actually that large. An organization, like the DSA, that could hold a relatively small bloc of votes hostage may find it easier to force concessions rather than try to overcome the entire national party apparatus, as has failed twice with Bernie.
The problem is that it will, as ever, draw a barrage of ire about the evils of not voting Democratic. (Which... is pretty much what Texas and Gray are being subjected to now.)
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
it seemed they were talking about the 2020 election--not some future strategy
― Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 18:18 (three years ago) link
They both vote in New York, their votes don't matter.
... in the screen cap like 10 posts back, Gray is very obviously talking about theoretical strategy.
― Donald Trump Also Sucks, Of Course (milo z), Wednesday, 14 October 2020 18:19 (three years ago) link