ADMIN LOG WATCH 2

The New KFC Burrito Double Down Meal

do you need a yellow card about making horribly formed jokes, forks?

no need to be jaundiced

A bit of a quibble/controp: being shamed into changing one's behaviour *can* be helpful in some cases. Speaking for myself and myself only, I probably would have never stopped smoking without a socially-instilled sense that it's utterly disgusting and stupid and expensive and self-destructive, which I feel more strongly when I'm in Canada than when I'm in Romania or France. Not to mention there are plenty of cultures (most?) where, for better or for worse, people don't feel the need to hold back when discussing this stuff. If they think you're overweight, drinking too much, not getting enough exercice, etc., they'll say it outright, and most of the time it's not even meant as an insult, it's more like: 'you really need to do something about that, buddy, it's seriously a shame', point blank. I'm not saying it's the right way to do it – if anything, my understanding is that scientific studies have shown fat-shaming in particular to be ineffective – but I find the cultural facet of it quite interesting. Like, I'm glad I live in a country where homophobes are shamed into shutting up, which I wish was also the case in Romania, say. So yeah, I'm not trying to defend the burrito here, I just have a hard time navigating this shit sometimes.

fatness is not a "behavior" though. so even without evaluating shaming's putative effectiveness in your other examples, applying this logic to the case of fatshaming seems dubious at best.

more fundamentally, fatness is also not something in need of correcting

If you say so. I'll keep my barbaric thoughts to myself next time.

I'm not trying to defend the burrito here

I want this to become an expression.

Aka playing burrito's advocate.

fwiw no one said your thoughts were "barbaric" but ok

Thursday, October 15, 2020 3:11 AM All Noise Dude Summertime Fun Board and Pickle Bar Message edited to : Fraud Alert - [NAME REMOVED] - $1
Reply to: anon-103209✧✧✧@craigsl✧✧✧.o✧✧
Date: 2005-10-10, 4:44PM EDT

Hi everyone,

Beware of a guy who is calling himself a Personal Trainer, [NAME REMOVED]. He frequently posts here. He is a theif and their is a warrant out for his arrest. BEWARE, this guy is dangerous.

Eric Damon Reavis complained

^ because we haven't experienced the random banal beauty of admin log entries like this in too long ...

good reminder not to source your personal trainers from ilx

only life coaches

and YSIs

and ox gallstones

at first, i thought the idea of a "seven day permanence" was a silly artifact of new mod policy mixed with old board code. but then i realized that, according to various creation myths, we've all been born into a sort of seven day permanence (the universe still exists even in its heat death). in this way, the mods have inserted themselves as gods into the mythology of this board.

xp ox gallstones post is a very good post, and i want to highlight that now that i've posted some bullshit directly after

On the seventh day, god read his bookmarks

fatness is not a "behavior" though. so even without evaluating shaming's putative effectiveness in your other examples, applying this logic to the case of fatshaming seems dubious at best.

otm, don't really get pom's weird defensiveness in response

If addiction isn’t ‘behaviour’, I agree, doubly so if you subscribe to a hard account of determinism. Otherwise I’m not going to pretend we’re on the same wavelength. If smoking and drinking are bad for you, so is being overweight, and certain cultures stress the latter (albeit not the former) more forcefully than others (China, for instance), whereas much of the Western English-speaking world (the US, Canada, the UK, etc., whose obesity rates are startlingly and disturbingly high) do not, which does perhaps – perhaps! – make a difference in practice, but I would like to emphasize once again that I am not absolutely certain of this, I was just thinking out loud about hypothetical cultural factors. One’s environment does play an important role, as you can see here, for instance:

https://www.cdc.gov/genomics/resources/diseases/obesity/obesedit.htm

Overeating is behaviour (sometimes addictive/compulsive).

Being overweight/obese doesn't necessarily always follow.

Lung cancer isn't a behaviour.

I think the piece of the puzzle you're missing here is that biology factors in - I never exercise and eat like shit yet am a skinny motherfucker, my wife eats healthy and does a lot of exercise yet is very much what would be seen as "overweight". So while we can discuss these things on a macro level individual shaming is 100% pointless unless you actually know the person so well that you can make that call.

xpost

individual shaming is 100% pointless

This is true and I never said the opposite! I was just talking about how differently these issues are collectively treated from culture to culture and the effect that might have on the population.

Btw that piece I linked to does discuss biology.

Overeating is behaviour (sometimes addictive/compulsive).

Being overweight/obese doesn't necessarily always follow.

Yes, this is also technically true. I was thinking in broader and hence imprecise terms, which I'll rectify.

I think that collective shaming might indeed have an effect here, but the impact it has on the mental health of fat people who aren't going to lose weight over it makes it too morally reprehensible to see it as a benefit of any kind.

That's a fair point. Cultures where collective shaming is prevalent generally don't give a damn about outliers. They tend to be viewed as sacrificial cattle, in a sense.

pomenitul, i'm not sure i follow - how did we get to "addiction"?

we must have whole threads for this, but just tossing out some thoughts here: "overweight" is a social construction (over what weight exactly? according to who?), the medical basis of which is actually not as sound as people often think it is. I Am Not A Doctor, but, a lot of health conditions that get linked colloquially to fatness are actually to do with other things like cholesterol or sodium intake, which sometimes can correspond with fatness but also often don't. picture the classic skinny nerd who eats nothing but chicken tenders and frozen pizza - this person is almost certainly less healthy, more in danger of heart disease, etc., than my fat friend who between her backyard garden and farmers' market job eats more fresh produce in a month than i eat in a year.

there's also considerable reason to believe that actually the real health plague here is fatphobia! my understanding from reading and hearing the experiences of other people is that:

(a) if a fat person goes to the doctor with X symptom, they are more likely to be told to focus on exercise and diet, and the actual condition causing X may go totally undiagnosed because the doctor just sees a fat person who needs to be turned into a skinny person. this is one of those things that i'm told is way way more common than skinny people would ever assume it is, because we haven't experienced it. many fat people know this, and therefore have a whole extra reason to avoid going to the doctor, on top of all the reasons the rest of us have, so that's a problem.

(b) there's an entire universe of products and practices that are incredibly bad for your physical and mental health and which can be blamed directly on fat-shaming and a fatphobic culture: crash dieting, speed pills, eating disorders. unlike fatness, those are unambiguously bad for you; they kill people and wreck lives all the time. also more generally being told constantly that your body is bad, wrong, hideous, shameful, sexually undesirable, a sign that your ideas should not be taken seriously at work, etc., etc., is prettttttty obviously bad for your mental health.

Big yes to all of that - BMI is unscientific nonsense, and the stigma of just getting told the same damn weight loss advice basically no matter what your problems are at the GP is demoralizing enough that lots of fat people avoid it whenever possible, which is obviously not great.

I wholeheartedly agree with points a) and b) but am somewhat taken aback by your tendency to minimize medical grounds for alerting people to the negative effects of being overweight. I am also very much aware that 'skinny-fat' is a thing, and that BMI (to cite the most popular example) is not the be-all, end-all. That being said, while 'overweight' as a category is indeed a social construct (I mean, absolutely everything is, in a certain sense), I fail to see how that makes 'fatness' healthy (also a social construct, while we're at it). It sounds like you're taking issue with the medical consensus because it doesn't fully account for the sociological facet of 'fatness', but do we really have to pick sides here?

As for addiction, overeating plays a highly significant part in the obesity epidemic. Indeed, genetic factors are not enough to explain the phenomenon on their own, although they do play an obvious part.

xp

dude just stop

Man, you guys are weird.

I'm not advocating for fat-shaming ffs. But if the baseline is 'fatness is also not something in need of correcting' to quote DC's post from a couple of days ago, that's honestly fucked up and a parody of anglo wokeness in 2020. I look forward to your FPs.

Urgh pom please stop describing everything you disagree with as "anglo". I've heard the stances taken by Doctor Casino from plenty of non-anglos, and indeed in conversations not conducted in English.

You live in the UK.

Yes - I have also lived in other places, and talked to people who aren't from the UK, as per the post above.

Pom, man, stop. I don't have the energy to go into this and Doctor Casino has said most of what I would have done, so all I can say is that this is a very bad hill for you to be dying on.

I'll stop, just don't expect me to change my mind. I think you've all been brainwashed tbh. And on that note, I'm out of this thread.

pomenitul if you are still reading: i am writing as a non-fat person who grew up with a lot of the same notions you're broadcasting here, and have come to change my thinking about this in my adult life. really i've only gotten to where i could begin to articulate the posts above in the past few years, as i've befriended fat activists, read a little more literature, and had my preconceptions convincingly challenged in ways i could not dispute. i submit that i was more brainwashed *before* i had my mind expanded on this issue than i was after. (that's why words like "woke" exist, also!)

so rather than just repeating the unsubstantiated claim that fatness is unhealthy --- indeed treating it so foundationally, a priori obvious that anyone challenging it must be some parody of something --- maybe there'd be some mileage in seriously considering the arguments, or doing some of the reading yourself with an open mind? just saying.

(and, just to be clear: my issue is not with "alerting people to the negative effects of being overweight," it's with the notion that such effects meaningfully exist. and in turn, with the real-world impacts on people's lives of insisting that they do, as a key leg propping up a very damaging and endemic culture of fatphobia, which does do medical harm.)

DC can you clarify how that claim is unsubstantiated? It seems verifiable that fatness has proportionate physical effects on the body. I want to know wha the counterpoints are.

I think both sides of this discussion would accept that there's a correlation of obesity (whatever the threshold, the correlation is there with that threshold) and health problems. But this is a study of a very large number of people. And from looking at the list of health problems, it's easy to imagine obesity isn't the actual cause of the health problem. For example, obesity correlates with mental illness. Do you really expect the dominant cause of this is not external to obesity itself? If you have correlation with mental illness and accept the relationship with body size is not direct, how many of the other health problems in the list are more likely to be caused by that mental illness?

it may be possible to argue against 'fatness is also not something in need of correcting', but that's also not something you correct in interactions with small groups of people. maybe let that influence policies you believe in or how you vote. don't assume a person with a bigger body is less healthy -- that's not how statistics work, or that you need to tell them they need to correct something. you are contributing directly to one of the health issues you claim to care about.

xp Many people labeled obese are also malnourished

but this is a weird place to have this conversation

the place where the conversation started seems like a fine place to have the conversation

I Am Not A Doctor, but, a lot of health conditions that get linked colloquially to fatness are actually to do with other things like cholesterol or sodium intake, which sometimes can correspond with fatness but also often don't. picture the classic skinny nerd who eats nothing but chicken tenders and frozen pizza - this person is almost certainly less healthy, more in danger of heart disease, etc., than my fat friend who between her backyard garden and farmers' market job eats more fresh produce in a month than i eat in a year.

also happy to move this to an on-topic thread. is there a decent one? i opened up "the right to be fat?", but as the question mark suggests, it does not appear to have been started in good faith and there's some pretty hateful shit right up at the top. maybe less bad more recently.

what the fuck

you know how stet offered to set anybody up with their own boards? is there one of those out there with former female ilxors or formers ilxors with good taste in music?

hey I have an idea how about we start a poll where ilxors can tell us if they’re overweight or not