is New York City dead?

yes "complex" is the word. It's not that these things *can't* be done, it's that there are layers of complexity and difficulty that become increasingly tiring and challenging, or else limiting. We could have spent even more time in our neighborhood and ventured outside of it less, for sure. We would have survived. Or we could have taken our kids to the Natural History museum on transit when they were 2 and 5 (I think we did this once), it's just the added 1-2 hours of travel time total, plus the fatigue from carrying the 2 yo up and down many steps and over city blocks when they get too tired or are moving too slow or sit down on the sidewalk in frustration, the stress of not knowing if the train will get stuck underground right when your kid needs a bathroom, the unlikelihood that you'll have seats, the likelihood of crowdedness, etc. Logistics of shopping, errands, everything just gets more complicated, time-consuming and tiring. I guess you could argue that if everyone was forced to live like that, it could potentially increase the availability of amenities within one's own neighborhood and just make us more neighborhood oriented.

I'm not saying I need a car because I live in Queens. I'm saying Queens is more car friendly.

There are certainly parts of Queens and Brooklyn and the Bronx where public transportation is bad or non-existent. Not where I live though.

When I moved here I said it was like a mix of living in Brooklyn and New Jersey. I could walk out of my apt, go to the pharmacy and drug store and supermarket, hop on the train to work etc.

OR I could get in the car, drive to Home Depot and Ikea etc.

Parking was much easier in my hood when I moved here than Brooklyn, but over the years even that's gotten harder.

As an occasional DJ, I'd find myself coming home at 4am driving around looking for a parking spot. Certain neighborhoods perhaps where there's more car commuters, it's easy to park before 10pm or so but at night it's hard.

We got a spot in our building's garage after 10 years only before our kid was born. I didn't relish the idea of pulling up at the fire hydrant, unloading kid and groceries etc then going to find a spot etc.

But it's also great to just come home from a party or whatever at whatever time (pre pandemic of course) and not worry, just pull into my garage. Certainly worth 175/mo. Was 150 when we started.

Now if we lived in Boerum Hill and garage parking was 500/mo, that would be a different story.

As far as how great having a car is, it's just so fun to explore the city (and to get out for day trips) and I suppose if you're the type who lives in Park Slope and using your car to go to the hamptons 1 weekend out of the month, well that sucks, but if you find yourself driving to College Point for dinner on a weeknight, I mean, you try taking public transportation to Little Pepper!, or driving to the rockaways and stopping at L&B or whatever on the way back. Or going to Wave Hill or Untermeyer gardens. It's great that you don't need a car in NYC, but it sure makes a lot of things easier.

yeah that is also true

It still sounds like you are underrating the fun level of spending hours on the bus

it's fun! the bus is great! you can let your mind wander or look at people or just cease to exist

maybe I just don't know what children are like which is fair, I haven't seen a child in a year

actually no I saw a colleague's child over zoom last year

There are two busses I've taken. The B24 from my old printshop to my house, it was the but that went from east williamsburg to queens and back down to greenpoint. It was the G train of busses and I got nauseous every time.

I sometimes take the Q32 to and from jackson heights.

Actually I used to take the bus 2 stops when taking my daughter to her pre-k in sunnyside, then I'd get some empanadas and jump on the 7 train to work. She loved taking the "city bus" to school with daddy. It was actually a really special thing we did together. Her mom would never take her on the bus because she gets way too car sick.

I just took a bus - to drop off my car! - and will be taking one to pick it up this afternoon hopefully.

How’d you get the car on the bus?

lol silby

this could also describe the complete takeover of cities by cars. which goes a long way, of course, towards explaining why provision for pedestrians is so poor...

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, January 6, 2021 10:41 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is exactly right.

pre-COVID I took the bus all the time; compared to the subway it is a delightful experience. like taking a cab but it's $2.50

now let's talk about tipping

(also, I can only really speak for the lines near me but much more accessible than the subway, granted that is a low bar)

I've taken the bus in Bk a lot and I usually find it full/crowded and not especially pleasant, plus very slow. But all of those conditions are choices of the system and can be changed. And yeah, in general the bus is WAY more accessible than the subway!

granted this is in Manhattan but there have only been a handful of times the bus was even close to being as crowded as the subway, and every time it was because the 1 was fucked up

this could also describe the complete takeover of cities by cars. which goes a long way, of course, towards explaining why provision for pedestrians is so poor...

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Wednesday, January 6, 2021 10:41 AM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is exactly right.

― Ima Gardener (in orbit), Wednesday, 6 January 2021 17:48 (twenty minutes ago) link

Take this with a huge grain of salt as I’m no urban planner, just a guy who read part of the Power Broker and stuff, but the difference to me is that NYC was sort of on the precipice of all this dramatic growth and change and could either have chosen to dramatically improve public transit or build infrastructure for cars and chose the latter. Now we already have all that infrastructure for cars and huge parts of the city are built and designed around it. Therefore it seems a better approach to me to say “going forward and planning for the NEXT wave of growth and change, we focus on public transit.” And over time people may migrate away from cars if you can make public transit sufficiently accessible and cheap and usable. But banning cars first and hoping this will somehow cause the improvement of public transit (which would take many years even if it worked) doesn’t make much sense to me. Make a bunch of peoples lives miserable so they’ll advocate? No, they’ll just whine that they want their cars back.

what we should do first is ban caring about cars. too many tracksuit dudes fast and furiousing up and down fresh pond road.

they could improve public transit before they ban all the cars. Where's my X line? https://citylimits.org/2019/06/19/call-to-study-new-transit-line-linking-bronx-queens-and-brooklyn/

In the last 20 years there's been a huge transformation of the outer-boroughs and public transit has mostly gotten worse.

Remember those maps showing all the trolley car routes between queens and downtown brooklyn?

Yeah one of them used to go down my cross-street. :(((

https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/1930s-trolley-map-shows-how-connected-brooklyn-was

"In the mid 1920s General Motors, Standard Oil, and Firestone Tires—noticing that the privately held, long term electric streetcar franchises all around the U.S. were up for renewal—wanted to expand their business opportunities by forming a 'shill' Holding Company called National City Lines. Using every form of legal and illegal tactics, such as murder, blackmail, and the bribing of elected officials, NCL gained control over forty Streetcar companies around the U.S.

"Their very first victim, was Manhattan's NY Railways, the operator of that borough's profitable electric streetcar system. In a pattern to be repeated all around the U.S., NCL gained control of the streetcar franchise by bribing elected officials, and immediately ripped out the tracks, wires, and streetcars, replacing them with GM busses (formerly their Yellow Coach Div., now called Nova Bus, located in Canada in the very same GM bus factory), burning Standard Oil gasoline (later diesel), and rolling on Firestone tires."

Murder? Diamond points us to this book, "which documents a Midwest reporter who was machine gunned to death in front his home, in the presence of his wife and 5 year old daughter, because he threatened to expose the NCL conspiracy."

That's kind of a weird route -- it has so few interconnections with other lines that get you places you'd want to go in Brooklyn. For example, from Forest Hills, I would have had to take the EFMR to Jackson Heights, transfer to the "interboro" and then if I wanted to go to, say, Barclays Center (a big destination and hub, just using for illustration) transfer to the 3 all the way down at Livonia and then ride it 7 stops. This would actually be significantly slower than taking the subway to Manhattan to get to Barclays. Maybe it's a bad example because Barclays is pretty close in to Manhattan (and also served by the G, which already does go from western queens to western brooklyn). All for creating more interborough lines though. Also I imagine a lot of the stops were chosen to serve underserved transit areas, which is why there probably aren't as many connections.

man alive i can't believe you're disagreeing that the only way to improve the quality of transportation in new york city is by 1) banning all cars in new york instantly and then 2) slowly, if ever, getting around to improving public transit i mean sheesh

lol @ sic. let's make him the president of the mta, a notoriously easy job.

my proposition: during an 18 month period when millions of people cannot take the subway for public health reasons, and are being paid to stay home, use that time to carry out a massive repair / upgrade program performed by masked workers.

say what you will about sic he made the trains run on time

that would never work because it's very expensive to borrow money for big infrastructure projects right now *pauses.. puts finger to earpiece, listens...* well, i mean, there's a real shortage of people to do the work *listens to earpiece again* well, i mean, there's no real business case for improved public transport in the 5 boroughs *continues*

interesting blog post here on the challenges of governance facing transport development

The Regional Rail proposal’s political obstacles are not exactly a matter of cost. It’s not that this should cost $4 billion (without the North-South Rail Link) but it was estimated at $15 billion and therefore there’s no will to do it. No: the Baker administration seems completely uninterested in governing, and has published two fraudulent studies making up high costs for both the North-South Rail Link and rail electrification, as well as a more recent piece of fraud making up high costs for Boston-Springfield intercity rail. The no comes first, and the high costs come second.

This history – no first, then high costs – is also the case for New York’s subway accessibility program. The MTA does not want it; the political system does not care either. Therefore, when disability rights advocates do force some investment, the MTA makes up high costs, often through bundling unnecessary investments that it does want, like rebuilding station interiors, and charging these projects to the accessibility account. A judge can force an agency to build something, but not to build it competently and without siphoning money.

lol @ sic. let's make him the president of the mta, a notoriously easy job

better to make him governor instead

xp yeah, the unnecessary station makeovers have always been extremely frustrating
NYT published a major piece on this a few years ago, it was plain to see anyhow.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/18/nyregion/new-york-subway-system-failure-delays.html

As far as how great having a car is, it's just so fun to explore the city (and to get out for day trips) and I suppose if you're the type who lives in Park Slope and using your car to go to the hamptons 1 weekend out of the month, well that sucks, but if you find yourself driving to College Point for dinner on a weeknight, I mean, you try taking public transportation to Little Pepper!, or driving to the rockaways and stopping at L&B or whatever on the way back. Or going to Wave Hill or Untermeyer gardens. It's great that you don't need a car in NYC, but it sure makes a lot of things easier.

Ehh, one of my favorite things, maybe my single favorite thing about living in NYC has been the access to amazing day trips to LI, NJ, Hudson Valley, city limits on public transit. I don't doubt it can be more convenient and way less stressful in the comfort of your own car but most places are accessible on public transit. College point is one of the tougher ones, sure, but Rockaways/L&B/Wave Hill = not especially?

Also, lots of NYC is unfortunately built for cars at this point. Here's Marshall Berman on "that bastard" Robert Moses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9b5UrF8O-s

I have a feeling that if we ever got a car, which we currently don't feel we need despite the kid, we'd never feel able to do without one again, a bit like when we all got mobile phones.

In the meantime my wife's just got her Zipcard, which we think will be fun but haven't come up with a plan of where to go with it yet.

I love day trips on the Hudson Line but Covid is putting us off using it at the moment.

Thanks for the shoutout to Wave Hill, my personal Strawberry Fields Forever since age 7 or so, and where I proposed to my wife.

Same! In the gazebo. After getting lunch at Cachapas y Mas.

Nice! I proposed down on the lower lawn with the view of the GW.

Considered getting married there but they building was closed for renovations. Also massively expensive and relevant to this thread, wanted something closer to public transportation. Ended up at the Metropolitan Building in LIC.

I've been there when they were setting up for a wedding and it would be beautiful. I think we found out how much it was and the fee was more expensive than our entire wedding (almost 20 years ago now).

I'm suddenly missing that place now.

Wave Hill is a lovely place, been a few times and want to go again sometime. When my daughter was 3 she developed an elaborate friendship with some windchimes there.

Have to scroll up, was Wave Hill mentioned as a place to drive to?

yeah Dan Selzer mentioned it. Never noticed before, but it's actually super close to a metro north station - I could get there by public transit way more easily from where I live now than I could from queens

Sorry, didn't consider how easy it might be to not drive there! I'd still rather drive!

have you been to Untermeyer up in Yonkers? Kind of a similar situation, fancy gardens overlooking the hudson.

haven't been to Wave Hill but have done some very pleasant wandering in the surrounding early 20th century millionaires' districts, Riverdale and Fieldston. great house-gawking. Van Cortlandt park also has terrific landscapes, big ol' rocks to clamber up... only been once, on a beautiful fall day, would strongly endorse. i went up on the subway to the end of the 1, and came back down on the Metro North from the Riverdale stop, pretty easy - but i'm a youngish person with an interest in hoofing it around hilly neighborhoods for its own sake. in the same general direction, the "Villa Charlotte Bronte" in Sputyen Duyvil is also well worth a peep in morning light, but really only coming by the MTN - the subway/bus connection is a pain.

this fuckin guy

>@NYCMayor calling for an "immediate investigation" of the Capitol Police's response to the Trump mob, criticizes leadership.

The investigation into his own police department for their treatment of Black Lives Matter protesters took 6 months and no leadership changes were made.

— Christopher Robbins (@ChristRobbins) January 7, 2021

I want to go to Untermeyer! Have not been.

We've toured some of the other mansions along the Hudson--highly recommend the Vanderbilt one, the guide was lovely and funny and you can walk all over the grounds. DO NOT RECOMMEND the Rockefeller/Kykuit tour. It's awful. The house is ugly as shit and looks completely un-liveable, the guides deliver constant scripted hagiography about several generations of Rockefellers, the tour only gets you into the FIRST floor, because the upstairs is part of a DIFFERENT tour and costs an additional $25 per person, and you literally can't walk across the driveway to look over the railing because that view is ALSO part of a different tour and costs $25 per person.

the thing about urban driving is, yes, totally --- so many things are so much easier with a car. this is the whole thing with cars in general though... they're a tragedy of the commons thing where (if you can afford one) it totally makes your life easier, but collectively, this leads to everybody losing out. even without getting into climate change it just massively reduces mobility for everyone without a car - for example, streets that could be brisk speedway sof frequent and reliable buses are instead choked with private cars. departments of transportation get oriented totally around keeping cars moving quickly, which is why bike- and bus-lane initiatives, even when they succeed, are often essentially sabotaged through design choices that nobody would make if their first priority was getting everybody around the city quickly.

meanwhile it becomes an uphill battle to reclaim even a little of the massive acreage devoted to private driving or parking spaces in the name of different, perhaps competing "quality of life" visions - to say this public space should be used for bike lanes, for bus lanes, for outdoor cafes, for wider sidewalks, for strips of grass and trees, for garbage containers, for safe zones around schools... all these other possibilities for how we could shape the city we live in. these are treated as weird outsider proposals versus the presumption that all this space is by default for cars. but except for certain areas in distant parts of queens and the bronx, and most of staten island, most of this roadway was not even built for cars in the first place! and somehow, the city functioned before all these people got cars. it needs to be that way again - or at least more that way.

BOOM

Yeah otm

Being a car refusenik is praxis

Using words wrong over here

Sorry, didn't consider how easy it might be to not drive there! I'd still rather drive!

have you been to Untermeyer up in Yonkers? Kind of a similar situation, fancy gardens overlooking the hudson.

― dan selzer, Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:51 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, we were actually supposed to go to a light show there the other night and it got rained out. They're only like a 30 minute walk from me, I live near the Yonkers border. May check them out next time I venture down the Aqueduct trail.

We went. It was pretty but not like, insanely special!

cars are useful and fun, they just shouldn't be privately owned