Defenestrate Them All: Canadian Politics 2021

yup. having only one francophone parent did not suffice.

I don't have kids and probably never will but if it does happen some day, I'm fairly certain that they'd never learn Romanian even if I were to insist on it. If my wife were Romanian, I assume they'd pick up enough to understand it, but they wouldn't speak it. I myself probably wouldn't if I'd been born in Canada.

I went to French Immersion classes from Senior Kindergarten to Grade 3, and I have no idea how I managed it. I really don't have any memories of speaking it at that time.
I read and listen to French, but I'd have to do so much studying to express myself as precisely as I want to do, there's no way it would be worth it. I'm not even sure I express myself as lucidly in English as I intend.

...and English is my first language.

I'm at the point where I actually think sovereignty would be a good thing, as it would clarify matters. No sense in staying together for the kids if you hate each other's guts.

Let's not lose sight that the context for this discussion is a federal PM and Minister, themselves both French speakers from Quebec, announcing programs to promote the French language in Canada.

What do you think 'clarification ' would consist of in practice? Who do you think would benefit?

It’s not a rational stance, I’m just sick of hearing my parents fight.

More seriously, if you're curious about what a left-wing pro-sovereignist position looks like, check out section 11 of Québec Solidaire's program:

https://api-wp.quebecsolidaire.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/18-01958-qs2018_programme-politique_f.pdf

And tbc in the event of another referendum on Quebec's independence, merely thinking two seconds about the hardcore sovereignists I know and how much they loooove immigrants would be enough to push me towards 'non merci'.

To be fair to anyone who did immersion, french is freaking hard.

Learning a foreign language is hard, period, but French is among the easier ones, especially for native English speakers:

https://effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficulty/

On the other hand, I don't know how many times I've heard english speakers say they don't want to sound stupid when they speak french because they haven't mastered it yet and part of it is just privilege, because that's how most of the world's feels when they switch to english.

otm

I understand that about non-English speakers and empathize.

I don't think it's fair to go to a non-anglophone country and expect them to speak English.

French Canadians did have a rough time of it for two centuries, and that deserves to be underscored (see, for instance, the openly racist Durham Report followed by the Act of Union 1840 and the oppression of francophone proles at the hands of capitalist anglophone elites up until the 1970s, which occurred along ethnic and religious lines, not to mention the legacy of 'speak white'). Does this compare to the suffering endured by other, primarily visible minorities in this country? Absolutely not, no. But I don't think we can pretend it never happened, which is the most common anglophone stance ime.

― pomenitul, Friday, February 19, 2021 11:28 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Everyone had a rough time. Francophones especially so because they abdicated all power to the catholic clergy.

That was a self-own, no doubt about it. The rest tho? Nah.

We’ll debate this in Franglais over a sour beer when the time comes.

I don't think it's fair to go to a non-anglophone country and expect them to speak English.

― Halfway there but for you, Friday, February 19, 2021 4:24 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I can make some mental exceptions! I don't know how many english speakers are in Montreal for a limited period of time, but it must be a substantial amount. It is okay if someone is coming to Montreal for work purposes for two years and doesn't end up an expert of Gabrielle Roy's literature, same for students, who end up doing part time jobs and screamed at because they aren't fluent, which is ridiculous and not at all inviting imo.

I'm mostly on your side but

I don't know how many times I've heard english speakers say they don't want to sound stupid when they speak french because they haven't mastered it yet and part of it is just privilege, because that's how most of the world's feels when they switch to english.

vs

students, who end up doing part time jobs and screamed at because they aren't fluent,

Fwiw no monolingual anglo I know has ever gotten shit for not speaking French, except, like, once, ages ago. For a while I only spoke English because such was my wont and nobody took issue with it anywhere. That said, these things do happen, and were certainly common in the past, but they tend to be blown out of proportion imo. If anything, I’ve witnessed French people getting roasted over their accent more often.

But isn't that the issue? You don't get shit for speaking English but you might get shit (or, more likely, just get people switching to English with an eyeroll) if you speak French badly.

People love it when anglos try to speak French. They might not have the rest of the conversation in French, which is indeed a problem, but it’s always appreciated. You get corrected for minor mistakes in France, not here.

Usually the anglo learner will have to insist on continuing in French before people stop responding in English.

I’m totally guilty of this myself btw. As soon as I detect a whiff of English I switch to it straight away because I want to put my conversation partner at ease.

And only French people get shit for their ‘wrong’ French because Quebec suffers from a massive inferiority complex in this regard. It’s a family affair, though.

Oh we are going to have a new SCC judge.

I was gonna say, I was a front facing employee with shitty French for years and ppl cam be really fuckin mean about it

That sucks. Fuck those people.

I will say it didn't happen often but 1. most of our customers were anglo students and 2. some of us are very thin skinned!

The real problem is (white) people from France.

Some ultra-nationalists take it very personally, like ‘how fucking dare they besmirch French on my turf!’ (never mind that many of these morons have a very limited command of their own mother tongue). I will say, though, that on r/quebec, where I occasionally lurk, every time an anglophone musters up the courage to post a message in broken French, they are loudly applauded and prodded further down this path. There will usually be one dissenter who says some bullshit like ‘they’re just not trying hard enough!’ and they immediately get blasted and downvoted to oblivion. This is a relief insofar as r/quebec is mostly a den of Legault-leaning separatists (which is kind of incongruous, when you think about it).

On r/france, the dynamic is similar except people will make a point of correcting the foreigner – not to belittle them, but to help them improve. This almost never happens on r/quebec, which is a lot more politely Canadian than it believes itself to be.

xp

I've only been to montreal twice and one time an employee in the metro screamed at me in french for making a simple request in English (I had just paid using a machine but nothing had gone on the card). I ended up walking lol

What a fucking tool. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you speak English with a Scottish accent, right? That makes it even worse somehow. Like, what the fuck has Scotland got to do with your beef?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6b5f9n7E-0

lol, native French Canadian speakers have a much easier time with English pronunciation, there's no competition.

Like, it's true that Legault isn't particularly good at it, but this is still better than your average French person who thinks their English is halfway decent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX8_g2UMcts

Bonus with Jay Baruchel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiM2AzgWYL8

Ha, I haven't watched the videos yet but I had to ask the mother of a new student, who had just recently come from France, to repeat the name of the street she lived on a few times before I realized she was saying "Pinetrail".

After lessons, we went back and forth repeating "Merci/Bienvenue" for a while before I thought to say "Je vous en prie".

re: learning French in childhood - I am a bit disappointed by my experience of this. I had a Francophone parent with an enormous Franco-Albertan extended family, but all my dad passed down to me was being able to count in French. My parents nearly put me in French immersion, which I was excited about, but we moved before I started kindergarten and it was no longer an option. I couldn't wait to start French in school, which for most 'normal' schools starts in grade 4, imagining I'd finally be able understand conversations at family gatherings and feel connected to the French half of my 'background'... except that from grades 4 to 6 all we learned was vocabulary and really simple present-tense sentences. I was so fed up with the painfully slow pace of it that I stopped taking it after grade 7 when it was no longer mandatory.

For me, French immersion was effective in making French feel like a burden and a requirement, and not very effective in conveying the joy of speaking a second language.

This feels true for my non-immersion experience too, but then I don't really know how you'd go about making French joyful for 9 to 12 year olds.

I try not to be too annoyed about it - almost everyone I know who carried on taking French til grade 12 (which would get them up to B2 level) has forgotten all of it anyway - but I do wonder if daily exposure to French from an earlier age would've made it easier to re-learn as an adult. I can read most things now, and speak alright-ish (probably with an awkward accent though), but even after 12+ years of re-learning I still struggle to follow a film without subtitles or a podcast played at normal pace unless they're intended for children, which is frustrating although I guess not unexpected since I'm not immersed in the language.

What a fucking tool. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you speak English with a Scottish accent, right? That makes it even worse somehow. Like, what the fuck has Scotland got to do with your beef?

Haha, arguably, QC has more justifiable grounds to have beef with Great Britain than with Saskatchewan or New Brunswick.

I mean, of the things you mentioned, the Durham Report was obv written by a visit Brit and the Act of Union was an act of the UK Parliament. The oppression of working class francophones by capitalist anglophones up to the 70s surely had at least as much to do with anglophones in Quebec as with the ROC aiui.

*visiting

although I agree that it's more reasonable to expect native-born Canadians to know some French than immigrants from the UK and obv no one should be yelling at jim regardless

I mean, of the things you mentioned, the Durham Report was obv written by a visit Brit and the Act of Union was an act of the UK Parliament. The oppression of working class francophones by capitalist anglophones up to the 70s surely had at least as much to do with anglophones in Quebec as with the ROC aiui.

That is a very generous reading. On average, French Canadians were far more opposed to British rule than English Canadians, for obvious reasons. This was a land of Loyalists after all. Barring a few notable exceptions, I think it’s fair to say that English Canadians in 1840 cannot be simply dissociated from the views set forth in the Durham Report (cue Shaggy: ‘it wasn’t me!’), although it’s important to point out that the 1837 rebellions in Lower Canada, while chiefly spurred by francophone political leaders, also garnered support from noted members of the anglophone community (besides, Upper Canada followed suit). But I’m not sure I completely agree with your second point: is the historically Protestant British elite caste in Northern Ireland mainly evidence of intra-Irish conflict? To me, that’s putting the cart before the horse. The majority of Québécois anglophones identify as Canadians first and Québécois second (et encore…), hence their marked preference for federalist parties. I also think we’re losing sight of the fact that for the better part of Quebec’s history, its francophone population did everything within its power to affirm its cultural/political/religious/linguistic difference from the rest of Canada, which surely means something? The territory of present-day Quebec wasn’t peacefully co-opted into the federal dominion – France lost a war that it had no intention of losing, and New France suffered the consequences. That being said, and to echo VHS’s point upthread, we did have not one but *two* referenda in recent memory, both of which ended in ‘no’, although I do find it amusing to note that the feds pulled some dirty tricks to influence the result (my parents are among the immigrants who got fast-tracked for Canadian citizenship, just in time for the referendum since it was fairly obvious that almost none of us would end up in the ‘yes’ camp).

Also, sadlol #1 @ the fact that the only topic that yields nearly 100 new answers itt in less than 24h is Quebec separatism and sadlol #2 @ me playing devil’s advocate for an ideology that mostly hates me and my ilk. Anyway, separatism is very much on the wane and younger generations are especially indifferent towards it, which is interesting insofar as in 1995, the exact opposite was true iirc.

The topics were academic freedom and bilingualism tbf. I don't think most of the discussion was about separatism?

All roads lead to separatism!

To circle back to what kicked off this discussion, I am very curious to see whether other conservative premiers will imitate Legault and make a similarly hypocritical pledge to defend free speech on campus. It’s certainly been gaining traction in other parts of the so-called Western world:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/14/government-to-appoint-free-speech-champion-for-universities-heritage-history-cancel-culture

(But no, I'm not sure that a historical francophone grievance against English colonialism within Quebec does add up to a fair grievance against the RoC, much of which joined Confederation later and includes many populations who were themselves also victims of colonialism, including significant French-speaking communities, just as I don't really see disputes over how Quebecois federal leaders responded to Quebecois separatism as conflicts between Quebec and the RoC per se).

xp I think Ford has already said something?

Agree to disagree? I doubt I could sway you (or anyone else itt, for that matter).

Yeah of course, and I get that you're playing devil's advocate to a point, as you said.

I mentioned separatism because Quebec's conservatives wrap themselves in the flag of Quebec to criticize anything that might upset the status quo when it comes to race relations.

What do we think of this case?

https://www.macleans.ca/news/the-joke-that-went-to-the-supreme-court/