scenesterism...

Blimey, 5 replies in and it's getting heavy. But to answer this question, I'd say it's pretty much like the old office worker question - some are poo and some aren't. I've been an observer*1 on two 'scenes' - one basically a group of indie kids who all went to Forest school and their terrible bands, the other (believe it or not) the Romford metal scene*2. The Forest lot were quite insular and ultimately quite up themselves. That = bad scene from my point of view, as they were basically in bands not to play music but as some kind of bizarre fashion accessory, and they thought they were SO GOOD just for being in a band. The Romford scene however was so supportive to those involved it was practically incestuous. Hell, they tolerated me even though they knew I hated metal*3. All the bands knew each other, and though they hadn't gone to school together as the aforementioned bunch did, they came together through mutual interest and love of their music. This meant that the majority of bands were very committed to what they were doing, but on the other hand they were pretty intolerant of almost all other music, except the hip-hop it was 'acceptable' to like at the time. Gigs were well attended, the same faces popping up again and again, including people from other bands - no overt competitive nonsense there (although that isn't to say there was no rivalry). So that = good scene. I don't think you can really generalise here... *1 - Basically either not 'cool enough' to be admitted to the inner circle (if applicable), or not interested enough. *2 - Don't laugh, there is (or certainly was in 1999) one, and it's even produced a couple of noteworthy bands, the most famous of which being Kilkus. *3 - Yes, I know it seems silly, but all my pub friends at the time were on the scene and I just tagged along for the hell of it.

'From a female point of view' . . . it seems like as soon as any small society is constructed within a larger one, it really quickly adopts the values and structures of the larger society. For instance, rock bands are full of guys who would be 'drop out faggots' in mainstream society, but somehow they manage to construct their own world where groupies fill the role of cheerleaders in jock society, and where there are the same values regarding competition, success and so on as in wider society, except that they relate to bands instead of careers and sport. I find this really depressing. Girls form bands but you can really easily compare their position to the inferior position of female sports teams.

I realised this most clearly when I read a sociological analysis of the conditions that made it possible for a bunch of jocks to rape a mentally retarded girl. All the complicities that were present - the social pressure not to say anything about their weekly get-togethers to watch pornography, their lewd and objectifying comments about girls, their cruel treatment of their female followers - are so obviously present even in my local band scene - which is supposed to be 'avant-garde', I suppose.

Sorry - that's not my e-mail address (above), I'm using my friends computer - I wouldn't want to besmirch his good name!

It's always disappointing when people who 'should know better' come out with rubbish.

hey that's not my *good* name, it's not even my 2nd-best name.

I have met allot of cleversquirts who dress the part and take the apothecary and dance about like tiny voodoo explosions but when it came down to it THEY DONT EVEN CARE ABOUT MUSIC. NOt that I care. Just an observation. It takes all kinds.

Scenes make for shit music. Bands "supporting each other" = big circle jerk, mutual admiration society.

I've already spoken enough on this subject to fill several hard drives by this point, but will continue to try to explain my POV.

Most people who are absolutely negatively *against* scenes and scenesterism turn out to be those who have some negative experience with "a scene" and they end up blaming that Scene and the Scenesters for their lack of social and musical acceptance, and their greater problems with music, aesthetics, the world, blah blah blah, etc.

Yes, I could probably be included in that number. ;-) (this is probably why I found it most bizarre, bewildering, and ultimately very funny that I should be termed a "Scenester" by some persons on this board, when I've spent most of my life being excluded by "Scenes".)

Those who are actually part of the "Scenes" we desipse are generally so concerned with their own social status, or loss thereof, that they would never dare to criticise the organisation. So there you go.

I don't think Scenes, or by extension any community or large social group, is good or evil in and of itself.

I've brought it up before, how and why scenes can be a good thing- if a community supports and encourages its members (not neccessarily the aforementioned self congratulatory circle jerk- honest criticism from one's peers is probably one of the most valuable things an artist can have) and is welcoming and *inclusionary* to newcomers, then it is a good thing.

However, as many have noted, large numbers of people often give way to crowd mentality, groupthink, and the abdication of personal responsibility and free will. If a community becomes that "circle jerk", suppresses free expression, and uses its "scenehood" to *exclude* newcomers, and in fact, starts defining itself in negative terms about what it is not- then clearly it's not fit for man nor beast, and especially not artists.

In one of those weird contradictions, community works best when it is run by those who are strong enough to hold their own opinions and have a sense of self worth by themselves.

But this is getting to be less and less about music, and more about sociology, so I'll back off.

no negative experience...just boring that's all. .. . dilutes the rock and roll for me.

from watching various threads which have been developing over the past few days, an observation...

ty, you don't like discussion of music. you don't like intellectualisation of music. you don't like scenes or scenesters. you apparently don't even like communities.

considering that this is a community of people discussing and intellectualising music, may i ask what it is that you are doing here?

...because I don't like it. Lapsed catholic maschoist, I am...

Occassionally someone starts an interesting conversation and I like to follow it. It depends, when there is true dissent, or even a devil's advocate in a conversation its' more interesting and people are more passionate.

I guess....

*shrugs shoulders*

Would it help if I said that I thought the Hives were a punk rock explosion?

I love music!