Velvet Underground Trainspotting Question

Aarfh. It’s tough making fun of a master satirist such as Frank.

Haven't listened in a while, but when it first came out, especially, The Bells sounded very refreshing, and refreshed: Lou woke up and smelled the coffee, realized the new possibilties in rock, especially in Noo Yawk: convergence of the Downtown crowd, as he referred in passing to the young turks,incl. Gramavison-associated jazzbos who knew them some VU, also emerging Material and New Wave and No Wave---was also a big Bohannon fan---and I always thought "Disco Mystic" might have something to do with Arthur Russell---some live The Bells--associated music, with Don Cherry, is on Between Thought and Expression. This could renewed his cred, and maybe sell okay---what with the commercial and critical success of Talking Heads, Blondie etc., obviously rock was growing a lucrative niche, at least---and "mainstream" was maybe even taking on some new wrinkles---(this of course was even before MTV brought many colorful weirdos and "weirdos" to us'ns in the boonie 'burbs)

i see lou and zappa being, like, almost complete opposites in how they approach music

I think Lou probly saw what Frank had and thought "that's what I should do," despite their mutual animosity.

i also think this is pretty absurd

Yeah, me too, despite the Doo Wop overlap. Paul Simon is another member of the Doo Wop Appreciation Society and he is on yet another dimension of musical creation, don’t know if the left hand or right hand rule applies.
xp

No, I can see some similarities in the 'tude, although for Zappa, it's an expected part of the act, and usually complacent---Reed takes it further, as noted by a rateyourmusic reviewer, who loves Take No Prisoners: This is Lou's infamous 1978 live album, in which he deconstructs and reconstructs his 'greatest hits' from the VU and his solo albums, while abusing and insulting the crowd, ranting about his critics, telling awful jokes, and smoking. He's clearly speeding like a maniac, and the entire album is steeped in sleaze and nastiness and insanity. It is punk in a way that few 'punks' could ever dream of.

I think this is a completely fascinating live document, and is one of my favourite live albums of all time. Lou is such an irredeemable, unfathomable prick through the entire thing, and it really is something to listen to him insulting Robert Christgau, talking about what a moron Joe Dallesandro was, imitating Barbara Streisand, praising Bruce Springsteen, and ad libbing whatever crackpot thoughts floated into his mind during the show. And his frustation w xgau is understandable, cos you *really* know what it's like to work your ass off for a year and get a B plus from some toesucker in the Village Voice? Well do yuh?
So back to The Bells, ringing more changes---this xgau bit got me to make my first solo Lou purchase since RnR A:

Ihe Bells [Arista, 1979]
Lou is as sarcastic as ever--the lead cut is called "Stupid Man," and in a typically acid rhyme he links "capricious" and "death wish." But due in part to the music's jazzy edge and warmly traditional rock and roll base (special thanks to Marty Fogel on saxophone) he also sounds . . . well-rounded, more than on Street Hassle. The jokes seem generous, the bitterness empathetic, the pain out front, the tenderness more than a fleeting mood. And the cuts that don't work--there are at least three or four--seem like thoughtful experiments, or simple failures, rather than throwaways. I haven't found him so likable since The Velvet Underground. B+

no, you are wrong, Reed and Zappa represent separate and irreconcilable magnetic poles, please stop with the copypasta

Zappa panders to his audience, Lou hates his

Zappa hated his audience too, but was willing to pander to them to get their money so he could afford to do other things he wanted to do.

sleeve otm. Lou has the words love/hate marked on his arms, Zappa just sneers through his facial hair

As good as “Watermelon Sheets of Easter” may be, it’s no “Street Hassle.”

Zappa's methodical. He literally wrote out sheet music and gave it to people to play.

Also Zappa was aggressively straight (though pathetically sneering at druggies throwing away their lives while he literally committed suicide on cigarettes)

It's kinda funny to me talking about Lou's intent and methods without mentioning he was supremely fucked up for a decent amount of it

Yeah it's been mentioned alright. Just sayin they both liked to sneer sometimes, though Lou was the one blowin snot (Z couldn't be arsed)

who gives a fuck about Zappa, jesus

Mr. Nobody, that's who!

Didn't Zappa die of prostate (not lung) cancer?

Not my point but also fuck Zappa VU rules

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_McaUor0G0

Zappa & Herb Cohen also allegedly lobbied Verve to leave VU & Nico on the shelf for six months so they could focus more promo $$ on Freak Out!.

^^^

Lou really coming off like the Star of a hostage video in that Zappa induction vid.

Still hold to my theory that the HoF induction speech was simply some kind of elder statesman maneuver on Lou’s part. Although apparently it is true that Frank did like some VU songs, despite his mockery of Nico.

Have any of those allegations about MGM/Verve shenanigans ever been substantiated? *Goes off to check White Light/White Heat*

It’s confusing. FZ seems to have given an interview in which he praised the first album, done a guest DJ spot in which he played a track off of it, and Gail claimed he was a fan when she called Lou to do the induction (already forgot who the HoF had previously turned down, because of racism or something) but then there is the well-known long-standing animosity which seems to have started when The Mothers opened for The Velvets at The Trip in 1966, which Jimmy Carl Black tries to be diplomatic about.

Some of that is from Unterberger, some my recollection. RU also says that maybe MGM was just bad at business, citing all the bands who ended up leaving the label and an incident in which The Cowsills’s contract was allowed to lapse due to an oversight thereby forcing the company to give them a better deal.

And then there’s the name-check on We’re Only In It 4 Tha Money where he calls the VU “almost as shitty a group as Frank Zappa’s group.”

Right, that too. Seems like he may have had some level of begrudging appreciation mixed in with the antipathy.

Jimmy Carl Black was also very complimentary about Mo Tucker's drumming.

Saw documentary, loved it, could watch that footage for hours more. Got the sense from my co-viewers that it's a bit frustrating if you don't have a foothold already (one quit about an hour in, saying 'I don't even understand who's in the band at this point'). I liked that about it - the slightly disorientating sense of enacting A Scene, like you've somehow turned up at the factory and obviously everyone's on first name terms and what do you mean you don't know who Paul is?

pathetically sneering at druggies throwing away their lives while he literally committed suicide on cigarettes

he literally did no such thing

Prostate cancer

> , like you've somehow turned up at the factory and obviously everyone's on first name terms

OTM, such an appropriate way to portray this kind of band. They weren't four classmates in a garage!

It was like the "Uptight" book, in film form..

The Zappa vs Lou doesn't seem to be much more complicated than two competitive assholes on the same label with the same producer and both having sort of the same audience ("freaks"). Trying to parse why those two liked or disliked any other human being seems like a fool's errand.

As for Zappa/Cohen trying to delay the VU record, that's always been the rumor but it seems more likely it was the delays in producing the peel off banana cover

Thought the doc was great btw

Yes, your first post is about right.

Saw it tonight. I think a lot of my thoughts on it have been well covered. I did think it pretty much turned into a standard issue rock band doc once Warhol and Cale were out of the picture. Couple of things I learned. Firstly that Cale's father was actually English, I knew he couldn't speak Welsh but most people in Wales can't speak Welsh, I have the feeling John had been keeping that one quiet! Secondly that Lou's father had pretensions to be a writer but was forced, or persuaded, to take up accountancy by his mother - that seems pertinent in some way!

The idea that Cale couldn't communicate with his father during the early years of his life was an interesting angle

Wow at Jonathan Richman in general but his 1-2-3-4-5 seconds bit on "Sister Ray" was just <3

agreed

Secondly that Lou's father had pretensions to be a writer but was forced, or persuaded, to take up accountancy by his mother - that seems pertinent in some way!

Yeah, that really stuck out...I've never found Anthony DeCurtis's writing or criticism to be especially good, but should I check out his Reed bio? I imagine it's definitive in terms of information, but I can see it being a pretty bland read.

It’s fine actually. Still waiting for the Will Hermes bio though, if that ever comes now.

I too don’t recall hearing either of those telling dad facts before.

Here's his sister, who is a therapist, I think:
https://medium.com/cuepoint/a-family-in-peril-lou-reed-s-sister-sets-the-record-straight-about-his-childhood-20e8399f84a3 Her take, of course.
Also, if you go here, wow at pix and links---to the above, also to a Hollywood Reporter piece re Lou's documentary, Red Shirley, about his cousin, then 99, from Poland, getting involved in civil rights struggle, so real Americans knew she was a commie (think there is or was an clip here, but haven't tried to watch yet)
https://www.google.com/search?q=lou+reed+sister&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=eDqcco07v8_XvM%252Cgz_BkmBLrKePQM%252C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kSFRE2PR4zT9Ovbw1LPfyed--H3ZQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi23qu83uvzAhUAmmoFHW7MCPwQ_B16BAgLEAE&biw=1215&bih=567&dpr=1.13#imgrc=eDqcco07v8_XvM
If all that doesn't show up on one page, Google "Lou Reed's sister."

nice find:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Shirley

I did think it pretty much turned into a standard issue rock band doc once Warhol and Cale were out of the picture.

I wonder if this was intentional, to track with the band's shift to a (relatively) more conventional sound once Cale left

I think it reflected that the amount of interesting material available - visually and narratively - was much less once they stopped being an NYC art scene band, surrounded by filmmakers and weirdoes, and became a rock band doing rock band stuff like going on tours and playing in Boston a lot and Cleveland a lot etc.

yeah it's maddening that the only video footage of the post-Cale era is that brief clip from Dallas

basically this should have been an hour longer, lol

Angus MacLise got short shrift here as well, which was kind of a bummer

Might have been some interesting encounters out there---Cale said somewhere that if they traveled far enough, they got to places where the audience thought Warhol was in the band. So, as not to disappoint, Lou coulda, "Hi, I'm Andy, how do you like my new hair?"

Warhol was VERY Famous, even to poor lil boys like me, down in the boondocks. Everybody luved his soup cans and funny answers to The Media.