http://www.fangraphs.com/careerleaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&type=6&min=1000
btw, andruw's career 137 UZR (since 2002) is the most of any player in MLB by a significant margin - next on the list is scott rolen with ~99. his 8.7 WAR in 2005 was an entire win better than mvp pujols' 7.7 - and he's seventh on the career WAR list despite posting -0.9 and 1.1 totals the last two years. he's clearly the greatest defensive player of his generation - not just outfield - and i wouldnt be surprised if he totaled up to have been worth more career wins than griffey, who has not only spent the last decade as a net negative defensively, but since 2002 has put up the most negative UZR of any player besides bernie williams (the bottom three: williams [-116.7], griffey [-116.2], adam dunn [-103.5])
...but since the hall despises defense, he'll never get in.
― born s1ocki (cankles), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:19 (fourteen years ago) link
the weird thing about helton is it's just his power numbers that evaporated, dude's still been putting up .400 OBP seasons year after year, plus superb defense. here's his career home road split btw:
HOME .361/.459/.648AWAY .295/.395/.494
― born s1ocki (cankles), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:22 (fourteen years ago) link
gehrig at home, olerud on tha road
i've been trying for years to figure out how much that shit really does come into play, esp since you have a dude like galarraga who left the rockies for the braves and hit 40 HR his first year there, then ellis burks leaves and puts up some pretty ridic numbers with the giants, and even larry walker did really well in short duty with the cards. then of course you've got castilla, who is like exhibit A for the benefits of coors, the dude left for 3-4 years of mediocrity then comes back and promptly leads the NL in RBI in his return year to colorado.
― "he said...all things passantino the night" (omar little), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:25 (fourteen years ago) link
preston wilson
2002 (FLA): .243/.329/.759 23 HR 65 RBI2003 (COL): 282/.343/.880 36 HR 141 RBI (led NL)
― autotune the jews (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:31 (fourteen years ago) link
his splits that year are weird tho. only 6 more homers at home than on the road but 27 more rbis at home than on the road. his average was 60 pts higher tho.
― autotune the jews (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:32 (fourteen years ago) link
guy had 91 rbis at the break!!
― autotune the jews (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:33 (fourteen years ago) link
no hofo
xpost
― The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall, Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:33 (fourteen years ago) link
i was tryin to think last week of all the different rockies players who have hit 40+ HR
galarragawalkerheltoncastillabichetteburks
also mike kingery hit .349 in 1994
― "he said...all things passantino the night" (omar little), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:34 (fourteen years ago) link
oh actually my favorite rockie season of all-time might be jeffrey hammonds in 2000:
122 games, 94 runs, 20 HR, 106 RBI, .335/.529/.924
home: .399/.465/.651/.1116road: .275/.325/.415/.741
― "he said...all things passantino the night" (omar little), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:37 (fourteen years ago) link
haha holy shit
― born s1ocki (cankles), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:42 (fourteen years ago) link
playing a subsequent full season at sea level is like giving these dudes truth serum
― "he said...all things passantino the night" (omar little), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:44 (fourteen years ago) link
im not sure if we'll ever see a more deadly and lolsome combination than pre-2005 steroid testing + coors field
― autotune the jews (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 01:54 (fourteen years ago) link
seriously preston wilson must've been pissing molten lava in 2003
His stat bump is pretty much in line with the move from Joe Robbie to Coors in that era.
― My vagina has a dress code. (milo z), Tuesday, 21 July 2009 05:34 (fourteen years ago) link
IIRC Larry Walker's home/road splits were not all that ridic ... sure, he hit better in Coors but on the road he still put up huge numbers. And in 1997, when he won the MVP, he actually hit a bit better on the road.
Jones was clearly on a HOF path up until two years ago, but the "washed up at 30" stigma will be hard to overcome unless he can hang on for a few more years.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 21 July 2009 08:18 (fourteen years ago) link
Yay a Rockies thread! Oh.
You guys have seen Helton's numbers this year, right? If he's fallen off a cliff he managed to land on one of those little ledges halfway down and is doing a good job of scrambling back up.
― Mark C, Tuesday, 21 July 2009 14:05 (fourteen years ago) link
he was a great pick-up on my fantasy team when youkilis started falling off
― velko, Tuesday, 21 July 2009 19:57 (fourteen years ago) link
Former major leaguer Andruw Jones was arrested on suspicion of domestic battery stemming from a dispute with his wife in suburban Atlanta early Christmas morning.
Records show that police arrived at Jones' residence in Duluth, Ga., at about 1:30 a.m. and that the outfielder, who broke into the majors at age 19 with the Braves and eventually played for the Dodgers, was booked at approximately 3:45 a.m. and released from jail after posting a $2,400 bond before noon.
Jones, 35, signed a one-year contract at $3.5 million to play next season with the Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles of the Pacific League in Japan.
The veteran of 17 seasons in the majors won 10 Golden Gloves as a center fielder from 1998 through 2007.
Jones led the majors with 51 home runs in 2005 and he had 41 more in 2006, but he hasn't hit more than 20 since homering 26 times in 2006.
Jones, who spent the last two seasons with the Yankees, has struggled to hit for average as well, failing to hit above .250 since batting .262 in 2006, twice hitting below .200.
― buzza, Wednesday, 26 December 2012 04:44 (eleven years ago) link
A lot of baseball stats in this domestic violence report.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 26 December 2012 12:54 (eleven years ago) link
i stand by the OP
― turds (Hungry4Ass), Wednesday, 26 December 2012 13:05 (eleven years ago) link
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ex-braves-player-jones-accused-182454105--mlb.html
― buzza, Saturday, 29 December 2012 17:53 (eleven years ago) link
I hate wrapping presents too.
― sanskrit, Sunday, 30 December 2012 00:02 (eleven years ago) link
James has an analysis of Andruw's HOF case up today; it's behind the paywall, so I can't link to it. The column, I'm happy to say (understatement), was prompted by reader e-mails from me and someone else. I'll quote the conclusions--all the math is in the piece (based on Win Shares, not WAR):
It is my opinion that, while Andruw had a distinguished major league career, he fell clearly and significantly short of the standard of a Hall of Famer. My standards for the Hall of Fame are:
1) 300 Career Win Shares, and
2) 100 more Win Shares than Loss Shares.
If a player meets both of those standards, he’s a Hall of Famer. If he meets neither, he’s not. If he meets one but not the other, then we’ll look more carefully at the details.
Andruw does not meet either standard. He’s at 247-178...70 to 80% of a Hall of Fame career...
I would put Andruw in a class with Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Fred Lynn and perhaps a few others. Jimmy Wynn and Dale Murphy. These men, all center fielders, were all tremendous players when they were young--such tremendous players that they didn’t need to develop in order to become Hall of Famers; they merely needed to sustain their level of performance for a reasonably full career. But, for whatever reason, they weren’t able to do that, and fell short of a Hall of Fame standard.
― clemenza, Thursday, 29 August 2013 13:42 (ten years ago) link
I'm not sure how "loss shares" works... does that mean if he'd retired at 33, he'd be HOF worthy?
― Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 August 2013 13:46 (ten years ago) link
I don't know the math that goes into them either--there was a big book where James spelled all that out, but I don't have it. Looking at his table of Andruw's career, here's what I can tell you:
If he'd retired at 33, and you eliminate his last two seasons, deduct 11-11; he ends up 236-167, still short of the 100+ standard.
If he retires after 2006, at the age of 29, his differential is at its peak: 203-122, +81. Still short.
Much of the piece is about the still-developing evaluation of defense. One more quote before I end up quoting the whole thing:
Since 1980 we have worked very hard to improve our understanding of fielding stats and to create better stats, but we’re still trying to catch up. It is a simple reality that we do not understand the role of a fielder in run prevention with anything like the same level of sophistication that we understand the role of a hitter in run creation. No one does, even the experts in the field...But based on my understanding of the record, Jones’ fielding
a) Was only truly outstanding through 2002; after that his Gold Gloves were mostly just reputation, and
b) Was not of substantial enough value that we should consider him an all-time great player.
― clemenza, Thursday, 29 August 2013 13:57 (ten years ago) link
I don't think James understanding is correct (although he was generally stronger for the first 6 years of his career than he was from 2003-2007).
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 29 August 2013 17:11 (ten years ago) link
I am unpersuaded as well
― Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 August 2013 17:35 (ten years ago) link
I disagree, but I'm not saying you're wrong--and neither really is James: I have done the best I could to place Jones in the "right" position as a defensive player, and, as I said, I have confidence that my system is generally right on a certain level. But I can’t prove that those who would give more weight to his defense are absolutely wrong, just as I don’t believe that they can prove that they’re right. (Have you read the piece, or just what I've excerpted above?)
I'm fine with anyone who wants to argue that Jones should be in the HOF, especially if they take the time to explain their reasoning. I do have a problem with the "Of course Jones should be in the Hall of Fame, wtf?" line of argument, the implication being that you're stupid if you believe otherwise. For what it's worth, James never actually answered what to me was the main question I was asking: is it irrational of me to care that Jones did very little once he hit 30? Essentially, does the arc of a career matter, or is that totally irrelevant? It very clearly seems to matter to the voters. Whether it should, I don't know.
― clemenza, Thursday, 29 August 2013 19:26 (ten years ago) link
I do have a problem with the "Of course Jones should be in the Hall of Fame, wtf?" line of argument
a line of argument i've never in my life seen anyone forward (sadly)
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 29 August 2013 20:59 (ten years ago) link
Check yesterday's general chatter thread (I had the acronym wrong).
― clemenza, Thursday, 29 August 2013 21:10 (ten years ago) link
oh that was zach he doesnt count
― i wanna be a gabbneb baby (Hungry4Ass), Thursday, 29 August 2013 21:22 (ten years ago) link
I do not spend that much time on HOF arguments cuz, um, it's not important.
On career arc: the second half of his, Cal Ripken was basically average.
― Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 August 2013 23:42 (ten years ago) link
(but he was the white guy with perfect attendance)
― Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 29 August 2013 23:43 (ten years ago) link
I think the HOF argument for Jones is not actually a great one, but the two "understandings" that James has are off to my understanding. Statistically anyway his defensive contributions for those ten years (along with his pretty nice offense as well) would be enough to consider him an all-time great CFer (his WAR peak is quite good in a very crowded field and his JAWs is fairly close). So IF he'd had a normal sort of decline his HOF case would be very strong. Which of course he didn't (Cal Ripken he was not). He fell completely off a cliff and was basically a replacement level ballplayer for his last five years. And on the defensive stats side I do understand being a little more skeptical than maybe on the offense, but it's not like eyeballs disagreed with metrics.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 30 August 2013 12:27 (ten years ago) link
A normal sort of decline, absolutely--that's what James says ("...for a reasonably full career"), also the sticking point for me. And as I said in the other thread, if you combine 2008/09 into one bad season (but hiding the hideousness of his 2008) and 2010/11 into one okay season, he looks better, if you're bothered by the arc stuff. Which I am, and others aren't.
Didn't even realize he was still playing in Japan.
― clemenza, Friday, 30 August 2013 13:01 (ten years ago) link
Right as I said I'm not disagreeing with that. My only point was Jones was very special for a CFer (defensively and offensively) for nearly decade and that during that peak you could make a good argument that he was as all-time great valuable.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 30 August 2013 14:24 (ten years ago) link
One thing they have to do is get rid of this 5% rule--it's terrible that Lofton's off before he ever had a chance to build a Blyleven kind of case. (Lots of other examples, I'm sure; I could see where Jones exits early, and I don't want that--argue it out, and give it a little time.)
I've seen various suggestions on how to change that. I'd set some very low benchmarks--200 HR, or 1,500 hits, or 150 wins, or 250 saves--and as long as you've reached one of those, that buys you five years regardless of how much support you get. (This would eliminate any obvious non-starters so the ballot doesn't get too cluttered.) If you want the 5% rule to kick in in the sixth year, fine.
― clemenza, Friday, 30 August 2013 20:36 (ten years ago) link
Interesting to wade through your Andruw-related posts on this thread, Alex.
Rank 20 active players on potential HOF induction
― clemenza, Friday, 6 September 2013 03:15 (ten years ago) link
Yeah I definitely had my eyes opened to the value of defense and stats in the immediate years following 11/2004. Amusingly I still think of things HOF related in terms of top five ballplayers at X position. :P
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 6 September 2013 03:19 (ten years ago) link
"These men...were all tremendous players when they were young--such tremendous players that they didn’t need to develop in order to become Hall of Famers; they merely needed to sustain their level of performance for a reasonably full career. But, for whatever reason, they weren’t able to do that, and fell short of a Hall of Fame standard."
You could probably put together a team of players with this story at nearly every position in every decade that probably give the corresponding team of hall of famers a run for their money.
― earlnash, Friday, 6 September 2013 05:00 (ten years ago) link
Morbs I know you've always looked down on St. Cal, but he had several seasons of average offense + good defense at a key defensive position after turning 30, and according to B-R he had a bunch of 3-4 WAR seasons after turning 30 (I think they're overrating his defense during that period but still). You can't compare that to Jones falling off a cliff and having some of the worst offensive seasons ever.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Friday, 6 September 2013 06:45 (ten years ago) link
I've got my starting rotation for earlnash's team: Gooden, Messersmith, Don Gullet, and Sam McDowell. Nomar at short, Knoblauch at second, Thurman catching. (I realize Munson's a special case, but he gets in under the "for whatever reason" clause.) Andruw in center, of course, since it's the Andruw Jones Team. Need first, third, and the corner fielders.
I'd either forgotten or never knew that Chuck Knoblauch's nicknames were "Skippy" and "Knobby." I don't know which of those I'd be more traumatized by.
― clemenza, Friday, 6 September 2013 11:32 (ten years ago) link
Sal Bando maybe for third base. Giambi maybe for 1st although young very relative here. Darryl Strawberry RF (Tony Oliva also good possibility). LF no one jumps out.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 6 September 2013 11:55 (ten years ago) link
yeah Ripken didn't start to get actively submediocre til 36, but I was addressing clemenza's introduction of "career arc" as a component of worthiness.
― Miss Arlington twirls for the Coal Heavers (Dr Morbius), Friday, 6 September 2013 11:56 (ten years ago) link
Mattingly slipped my mind--he seems like the obvious Andruw choice at first. (I know what you mean about Giambi, but with a good season at 35, an okay one at 37, and the fact that he's still hanging on at 42, he doesn't quite fit the Andruw profile.)
― clemenza, Friday, 6 September 2013 12:42 (ten years ago) link
Some of those other guys that James mentions are like Mattingly that they played for a while, but they topped out with being great around 30 or so. Cesar Cedeno (played to 35) and Fred Lynn (played to 38) were still playing in their later mid-late 30s, they just were not as good or were constantly being injured and missing 50 games a year.
Outfielders-Juan GonzalesJose CansecoRocky Colavito
3B- Scott Rolen
Starting pitchers - Bret Saberhagen, Vida Blue
That's a few more off the top of the head.
― earlnash, Friday, 6 September 2013 13:11 (ten years ago) link
Keith Hernandez & Dave Stieb
― earlnash, Friday, 6 September 2013 13:17 (ten years ago) link
Steib's a better choice than Gullett: great/dominant for six seasons, strong for another four (with one awful season between), finished at 32.
― clemenza, Friday, 6 September 2013 14:11 (ten years ago) link
RF for the Andruw team: Tony Oliva. 42.6 WAR by the age of 32, .313/.361/.507 (mostly through the pitcher-dominated '60s), three batting titles, coming off eight straight seasons where he got MVP votes. He gets hurt and barely plays in '72, then he becomes one of the pilot DHs, where he has three decent but not especially distinguished seasons. Retires at 38, but he was essentially finished at 32.
― clemenza, Sunday, 8 September 2013 19:01 (ten years ago) link
Oops--Alex already mentioned him.
Giambi's career arc is a lot more like Thome's than Andruw Jones'.
Nobody mentioned Dick Allen yet. He had his last great season at 30, his last good one at 32, and was finished at 35.
― NoTimeBeforeTime, Sunday, 8 September 2013 20:48 (ten years ago) link
Dick Allen is a poster-child def. but I think a large reason he did not get consideration was also because he was not well liked (although shortened career def. did not helped). His offensive #s are amazing for that period.
― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, 8 September 2013 22:01 (ten years ago) link
Albert BelleJim Wynn (also lost a ton of HRs to Astrodome most likely...)
Then you got the really big dudes that were good until they hit their 30s. They are pretty similar to guys like Killebrew or Thome, except they flat lines where those two were still productive into their mid-late 30s.Richie SextonFrank HowardMo VaughnTed KluszewskiRalph Kiner (still got in the HOF though...)
― earlnash, Monday, 9 September 2013 02:49 (ten years ago) link
I like Belle for LF. My team:
C: Munson1B: Dick Allen (there's a paradox in picking someone like Allen over Mattingly--Allen probably should be in the HOF, and therefore, at least for me, he becomes less Andruw-like than Mattingly, who clearly falls short--but Allen nonetheless fits the profile well)2B: KnoblauchSS: Nomar3B: Troy Glaus (very solid till he's 31, 300 HR and 38.0 WAR, then he's finished; Rolen and Bando and others were clearly better, but I think their declines were more normal than sudden)LF: BelleCF: AndruwRF: Oliva
Starters: Gooden, Sam McDowell, Messersmith, StiebCloser: Robb Nen
Manager: Joe Schultz
I just want Joe Schultz as my manager no matter what. He has nothing whatsoever to do with Andruw Jones.
― clemenza, Monday, 9 September 2013 03:40 (ten years ago) link
Jody Davis is a pretty good catcher for a list. The Cubs just wore that dude down to a nub and his back went bad.
― earlnash, Monday, 9 September 2013 04:29 (ten years ago) link
I'd frame the argument differently, but I don't think Andruw Jones belongs in the HOF either.
http://www.billjamesonline.com/andruw_of_center_field/
― clemenza, Tuesday, 16 January 2018 03:51 (six years ago) link