His BBC2 show about David Baddiel you mean?
― When Smeato Met Moaty (Tom D.), Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:21 (two years ago) link
i started to say he is to public intellectuals what david walliams is to children's literature but it made me think of rory mcgrath so i'm stopping right here
― mark s, Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:22 (two years ago) link
couldn't he just go to a doc or a shrink to deal with ego and butthurt issues? Or maybe just admit that he's a racist prick. And GYAC look up the 90's vid where has Ray Houghton doing a potato potato take the piss out the Irish routine, the guy is fucking cock!
― calzino, Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:26 (two years ago) link
Lol I haven’t changed my view on him, I just feel I get him a bit better. He’s still wrong but I can understand him a lot more than someone awful like Franc3s Barb3r
― mardheamac (gyac), Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:30 (two years ago) link
couldn't he just go to a doc or a shrink to deal with ego and butthurt issues?
He could get a book or a live tour and DVD out of it too. It's win-win!
― When Smeato Met Moaty (Tom D.), Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:31 (two years ago) link
https://c.tenor.com/Loy4BOAxEMgAAAAd/analyze-this.gif
― mark s, Saturday, 11 December 2021 16:34 (two years ago) link
he's done performative* public apology but afaik never apologised directly to jason lee? (not that i would know this obv but lee says not as of 2020 iirc) *yes this is an incorrect usage i am in a hurry
― Fizzles, Sunday, 12 December 2021 18:10 (two years ago) link
ok fair but i still feel that it was handy that the thing it used to mean had a word for it, and now it kinda doesn't
even tho presumably if it does get a new word the same thing will happen again
― mark s, Sunday, 12 December 2021 18:18 (two years ago) link
"“For people who get a thrill from anger, apologies make no difference. There’s a notion now online that shouting itself has a kind of nobility, that it’s the voice of the disenfranchised,” he says. If Baddiel wasn’t on social media, this embarrassment from his past would have been largely forgotten."
He wouldn't have written his books on AS either..
― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 12 December 2021 23:46 (two years ago) link
>>> performative, as in an action delivered by words, such as “I do” and “I’m sorry”, is totally vulnerable to the problem that the words may be said without them actually enforcing the action. so that performative has come to mean statements with no intention of action.
This doesn't quite make sense to me.
I see how performative (perhaps unfortunately) comes to mean this new thing, but not how this flows logically from the old thing, which arguably meant the opposite.
― the pinefox, Monday, 13 December 2021 12:29 (two years ago) link
https://i.imgur.com/xea6iVR.jpg
― Luna Schlosser, Monday, 13 December 2021 13:39 (two years ago) link
Oops sorry for huge image...Have been looking for this for ages: the various options for performative apologies.
― Luna Schlosser, Monday, 13 December 2021 13:40 (two years ago) link
― the pinefox, Monday, 13 December 2021 12:29 (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is true.
― plax (ico), Monday, 13 December 2021 19:18 (two years ago) link
it doesn't flow logically, it flows empirically (ppl fib a lot and correlation in large quantities is more and more taken for causation)
my favoured exemplary performative statement is "i now pronounce thee man and wife" (and i don't think this is vulnerable to the fibbing dynamic)
(tho i do like the idea that the vicar can say the next day "actually you're NOT married bcz i totally didn't mean it!")
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 19:49 (two years ago) link
but of course the elements go into that making "man and wife" performative are very specific and required by law
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 19:50 (two years ago) link
I did a few performative confessions with priests when I was a kid. Like make something up ... had an argument with my brother etc... rather than yeah I drank some cider last week and started an embankment fire that got out of hand and required the fire service to put it out.
― calzino, Monday, 13 December 2021 19:56 (two years ago) link
what's the old definition of performative? actorly or something... sort of the same.
― calzino, Monday, 13 December 2021 19:58 (two years ago) link
not really: it's a technical term introduced by j.l.austin (i guess in the 50s ?) to fvck with analytical philosophers and the like, who were all abt speech being true or all all the time. it's a type of speech that does something rather (than describes something). hence "i now pronounce thee man and wife" is performative bcz it performs the act of marrying two people
(ie it's abt the effect of the performance not the quality of the performance: yr still married if the vicar stammers or gets half the words wrong or falls over)
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 20:16 (two years ago) link
s/b who were all abt speech being true or FALSE all the time
whereas now when we say someone saying something is performative we just mean they were doing it for show or merely virtue signalling or otherwise pretending
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 20:18 (two years ago) link
a boring take is that "perform" has a few different senses and it's fine if the derived adjective "performative" does too
― Vangelis fleadh (seandalai), Monday, 13 December 2021 20:32 (two years ago) link
― mark s, Sunday, 12 December 2021 18:18 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 20:35 (two years ago) link
also austin definitely invented it with a specific purpose in mind (it's not in the SOED)
https://i.imgur.com/di5raJF.png
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 20:39 (two years ago) link
well i mean it probably is now, it's not in my grandad's 1933 edn
― mark s, Monday, 13 December 2021 20:42 (two years ago) link
before 1960 the preferred term was performalicious
― Vangelis fleadh (seandalai), Monday, 13 December 2021 21:37 (two years ago) link
I think it's not really true that performative is limited to SAT definitions given how it was so quickly taken up and prodded at by Derrida and subsequently butler so probably its most influential use where I think it's best understood simply as the 'doing' facet of language rather than the describing facet (as we really don't need to get hung up on sorting statements into normal/not normal*)
*What a bunch of totally normal guys
― plax (ico), Tuesday, 14 December 2021 08:45 (two years ago) link
…we just mean they were doing it for show or merely virtue signalling or otherwise pretending…‘Just doing it for show’ doesn’t really capture when things have to be done in the public arena, there has to be an actually public declaration. Eg for a major political speech it’s published on a website, tweeted, extracts and press notice given to media under embargo (or leaked) - but there often has to be an actual speech, a performance.
― Luna Schlosser, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:01 (two years ago) link
But agree with the boring take on this.
― Luna Schlosser, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:04 (two years ago) link
yeah like incidients of lingustic change it's a battle lost (ilx has a whole dumb thread plaintively canuting* it) and fizzles' explanation of the unavoidable social dynamic is as good as any
i think i'm making a meal of it bcz i only really got my head round the austin definition very recently -- despite being a massive fan of derrida's demolition of searle, which is actually all about this very topic lol -- so i'm all "i only just learned the exact opposite ffs!" so in conclusion poor me
*also misused yes indeed
― mark s, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:18 (two years ago) link
he's done performative* public apology but afaik never apologised directly to jason lee? (not that i would know this obv but lee says not as of 2020 iirc)
*yes this is an incorrect usage i am in a hurry
― mark s, Saturday, 11 December 2021 bookmarkflaglink
The Jason Lee fantasy football clips, on their own, don't show how ubiquitous and successful Baddiel's campaign of racist harassment was. At the time you'd hear the chant it inspired everywhere, from the terraces to school playgrounds. It really was a 'cultural moment'— UEFA SNIPER (@dreamboatslim) December 14, 2021
― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:19 (two years ago) link
speaking as someone for whom football is as mysteriously distant and unexplained as the longyou caves what is the chant being described there?
(not at all doubting the claim btw, as it absolutely matches my read of how the 90s were evolving)
― mark s, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:42 (two years ago) link
"He's got a pineapple, on his head" to the tune of “He's Got The Whole World In His Hands”
― calzino, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:45 (two years ago) link
It must have been great for Jason living in the least racist country in the world during the era of political correctness
― calzino, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:46 (two years ago) link
some abhorrently homophobic comments Blunkett made about Freddie Mercury on some live tv from the 90's recently resurfaced on a bbc doc as well. Anything went back then - it was the wild west really.
― calzino, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 11:56 (two years ago) link
Don't forget Jack "not a racist cunt" Straw calling for a partial burqa ban
― let's make lunch and listen to five finger death punch (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 14 December 2021 12:11 (two years ago) link
tapping sign: last "good" home secretary was roy jenkins first time of asking
― mark s, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 13:20 (two years ago) link
Off topic: i thought David Baddiel’s programme was interesting and worth watching. It was a bit unbalanced though: with more time devoted to trying to show how prescient David Bowie’s comments were about the internet, than to some of the interviewees who had very perfunctory and unsatisfactory coverage.Not convinced personally that David Bowie’s comments from c.1999 were anything more insightful that might be offered by anyone who had glanced at Wired magazine for 10 minutes at some point in the mid-90s.
― Luna Schlosser, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 13:42 (two years ago) link
perhaps someone dumb enough to try and melt some superglue off his spectacles by putting them into a microwave oven may just be the type of person who thinks Bowie was some kind of wise prophet!
― calzino, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 15:32 (two years ago) link
"Pour me out another phoneI'll ring to see if our friends are home"
Prescient? Well, no the friends could be out of the house and still answer the phone these days. And, etc
― Mark G, Tuesday, 14 December 2021 21:34 (two years ago) link
Tell us about your favourite memories of the office https://t.co/IMpPyqLSSv— The Guardian (@guardian) December 15, 2021
― nashwan, Wednesday, 15 December 2021 23:02 (two years ago) link
my favourite memory of The Office is never actually watching it.
― calzino, Wednesday, 15 December 2021 23:07 (two years ago) link
lol same
― Tracer Hand, Thursday, 16 December 2021 09:19 (two years ago) link
Can’t stand Ricky Gervais. Never took to any iteration of The Office.
― the thin blue lying (suzy), Thursday, 16 December 2021 09:49 (two years ago) link
Ricky "I have no catchphrase" Gervais?
Funny, I'd just go "..ooh, bit sexist..." and let you guess who I'm doing.
― Mark G, Thursday, 16 December 2021 10:05 (two years ago) link
He used to live around the corner from me, and is a very short man with a face that appears red and scaly because either rosacea or retinol treatments gone bad.
― the thin blue lying (suzy), Thursday, 16 December 2021 13:43 (two years ago) link
original office is absolutely genius, one of the best works of television ever
gervais sucks
― sean gramophone, Thursday, 16 December 2021 14:10 (two years ago) link
let's here it for the exorbitantly talented comedy writers connie booth, arthur mathews and stephen merchant who did great work in the face of fearful obstacles
― mark s, Thursday, 16 December 2021 14:38 (two years ago) link
It's became overwhelmingly certain in the last few years that David Brent was mostly a self-portrait.
― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Thursday, 16 December 2021 14:44 (two years ago) link
I quite enjoyed the films he made, Ghost Town, Lying, and (ahem) Cemetery Junction
Suzy, does that make you a Whitley resident (or ex-...) ?
So many references in that Cemetery Junction film I recognised (often when things were markedly different, e.g. Cemetery Junction itself is not a railway station, posh girl surname Kendrick, the dull office the main character works at..)
And, although I've not met RG (i don't think) , I'm sure I have met some of the people that the characters were based on!
― Mark G, Thursday, 16 December 2021 14:48 (two years ago) link
xpost yeah, some people I know raved on the David Brent "rock band" sequel, I thought it massively unfunny. Also, conversely, "Free Love freeway" is too good a song to be treated with the derision that the comedy calls for.
― Mark G, Thursday, 16 December 2021 14:49 (two years ago) link
Ha no, I’m in Bloomsbury and RG used to live in a block on Southampton Row.
― the thin blue lying (suzy), Thursday, 16 December 2021 15:03 (two years ago) link