outbreak! (ebola, sars, coronavirus, etc)

What confuses me is the widespread assumption that schools are fundamentally different from any other indoor space with a lot of people packed into it. If covid can spread, it can spread in schools. If masks work, they work in schools.

t's not like we have a bunch of studies where they took two similar-sized schools in similar-sized communities with the same general measures against covid and the same vaccination levels, had one school mask and the other not mask, and then tested the entire student body regularly.

they did this in the UK fwiw.

What confuses me is the widespread assumption that schools are fundamentally different from any other indoor space with a lot of people packed into it. If covid can spread, it can spread in schools. If masks work, they work in schools.

for sure. my point is that what happens in schools doesn't matter (even to the people in schools) if the community is on average being less strict about masks and other NPIs outside schools.

Well, shows what I know. Thanks for setting me straight about the studies.

But it does matter to the individual - student or teacher - what the level of safety is in the classroom. If covid is surging - whether it's because of lax community protocols or for any other reason - it makes a difference to me knowing that my students and I are protected in this space that I'm responsible for. It makes a difference to families that are trying hard to minimize covid risk, because the school is one area that they have no control over. And that, at the very least, means fewer students out because parents are worried by high levels of covid in the community.

right. there is an apparent tension between public health (where the effect of school masking on the aggregate school community is dubious to non-existent) and individual health (where it's more plausible, although again pretty anecdotal).

and it's certainly a problem (for school funding, if nothing else) if people stop coming to public schools because they implement policies that make students or teachers feel unsafe, even if they are empirically or logically safe according to an idiot (me).

(although by the same token, it's a problem if kids and teachers move to more permissive school districts or private schools because of covid policies, e.g tribal politics, impression more "chill" schools are more likely to stay open, be less unpleasant/frightening for kids, have better learning outcomes, whatever.)

I think a lot of schools have the teachers open the windows and/or use air purifiers, so it's not just a total stew of stagnant sick kid air in there. My wife is a teacher/librarian, so she has to see ALL the students. So far (fingers crossed!), she hasn't gotten sick. She is definitely sick of wearing a mask, but I don't think she'd be down with all the kids taking them off. Maybe? We are in SF, so like 95% of the kids are vaccinated.

She's been a "close contact" so many times she just ignores the messages at this point.

anecdotally, i will say it's completely deranged that my 20 month old (!) has to wear a "medical grade mask". he shits his pants regularly! i don't think the mask is helping.

is SFUSD requiring vaccination for 12+ or 5+?

Nope. RMDE. I don't understand why these vaccines (for an actual RAGING disease) are special. Maybe if someone made a regular-old dead virus vaccine, they could require it? God knows what logic is driving everyone.

That being said. SFUSD has pretty high vaccination rates (at least among the rich).

that's surprising. LAUSD requires it for 12+. i guess the school board politics in SF are particularly fraught right now though?

(you could drive a bus through the fallacies in this article, but i do think LAUSD has done a pretty good job by the standards of the US https://news.yahoo.com/how-los-angeles-became-the-national-leader-for-keeping-schools-open-155005220.html)

I didn't see that requirement in the article:

“L.A. Unified has led with some of the highest safety measures in the nation — and that is our required masking, both indoors and outdoors; our weekly testing of all of our students and staff regardless of vaccination status; and our very high vaccination rates,” LAUSD medical director Dr. Smita Malhotra recently explained, adding that 100 percent of staff and 90 percent of students 12 and older are now inoculated.

I don't think anywhere in the US is REQUIRING vaccines for school kids, but I may be wrong.

you are wrong. it came into force last week. i assume it's partly people being given time to comply and partly medical excemptions.

https://laist.com/news/education/here-are-the-covid-19-requirements-for-la-unified-students-coming-in-spring-2022

all schools in california will be required to require vaccination for 12+ from the start of the next school year btw. some school districts have chosen to require it earlier.

actually no

that last sentence is wrong. LAUSD is requiring it though.

Oh cool. I'm sure we'll follow suit shortly.

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2021/10/01/california-becomes-first-state-in-nation-to-announce-covid-19-vaccine-requirements-for-schools/

Upon full FDA approval of age groups within a grade span, CDPH will consider the recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the United States Department of Health and Human Services, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and the American Academy of Family Physicians prior to implementing a requirement. Following existing statute, full approval of ages 12+ corresponds to grades 7-12, and full approval of ages 5-11 corresponds to grades K-6. Students who are under the age of full approval, but within the grade span, will be required to be vaccinated once they reach the age of full approval (with a reasonable period of time to receive both doses), consistent with existing procedures for other vaccines. The requirement will take effect at the start of the term following full approval of that grade span, to be defined as January 1st or July 1st, whichever comes first. Based on current information, the requirement is expected to apply to grades 7-12 starting on July 1, 2022. However, local health jurisdictions and local education agencies are encouraged to implement requirements ahead of a statewide requirement based on their local circumstances.

the expectation is that CA will require it for 12+ (and possibly 5+) from July 1, but that's contingent on full FDA approval (i think we're still under EUA for <=15)

that’s great. yet another thing for school admins to deal with though.

i mean it's one of many vaccines they're required to check for, so it's hopefully not a ton of extra administrative work. admittedly they probably don't get as many death threats about the other vaccines.

i'm struggling to find a link for this right now, but the requirement is causing one very expensive burden on LAUSD schools: for now at least they are keeping the remote option for anyone who wants it, and in practice it's mostly being used by families who refuse to vaccinate their kids.

Ah that’s a shame. Uh.

https://bnonews.com/index.php/2022/01/former-washington-state-trooper-who-refused-vaccine-dead-of-covid-19/

Tbh anyone who says kids shouldn't be masked in school doesn't care about teachers, afaic, and can get the fuck out of here.

Teachers, their families, and their communities for that matter.

Right. I think you’ve made that point before.

anecdotally, i will say it's completely deranged that my 20 month old (!) has to wear a "medical grade mask". he shits his pants regularly! i don't think the mask is helping.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, January 28, 2022 6:28 PM (yesterday)

um caek how are you putting his masks on?

Repeatedly

anecdotally, i will say it's completely deranged that my 20 month old (!) has to wear a "medical grade mask". he shits his pants regularly! i don't think the mask is helping.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Friday, January 28, 2022 6:28 PM (yesterday)

Use the mask as a diaper.

KN95 onesie

Laurence Fox posting a picture of himself wearing a "No Vaccine Needed, I have an Immune System" t-shirt and then testing positive just three days later is *chef's kiss*

And now the cunt is taking Ivermectin too 🤦‍♂️

That's funny, he was recommending Lemsip to other affected celebs recently

belated OTM and solidarity to Lily Dale upthread who is essentially suggesting that if you want to have public schooling that maybe your child's discomfort is worth her life

eeeeeeeeyyyyy time for me to hit the clubs and airports

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2022/01/31/coronavirus-vaccine-children-under-5/

it’s good that they spoke to people with knowledge, rather than the other kind, imo

xp thanks forks. I'm not entirely pro-mask, and I'm not all that worried about myself right now, though I do expect that if/when masking stops I'll go back to getting sick every year. It's just that I don't think it's ever going to be as easy as "Oh, masks don't actually work, so it won't make a difference to your risk." It will make a difference, there will be more illness in the schools, and maybe that's worth it at this point. I just want people who are making the argument to acknowledge that the downside - that the classrooms will be less safe - is real.

sounds like i'll be hitting the clubs and airports even sooner than yesterday's reports suggested

FDA has asked its vaccine advisory committee to hold Feb 15 for a meeting, per a source, potentially to review Pfizer application for vaccine for under 5s https://t.co/5j8Zr1qvGj

— Meg Tirrell (@megtirrell) February 1, 2022

I really don't want to sound aggro but.... why is this a big deal? Am I wrong that being under 5 is already far better protection from serious illness against COVID than vaccine+booster? And I don't think reducing transmission in toddlers can possibly have a major effect on the speed of spread through the community overall. I guess for households that have a toddler in daycare and an elderly grandparent. But for everybody else?

I guess for households that have a toddler in daycare and an elderly grandparent.

this is ... most households that have a toddler?

other reasons

this will likely mean that public health departments/preschools that currently require/recommend quarantining on contact and infant masking will loosen restrictions.

makes international travel easier (everyone in the household is vaccinated)

I don't think reducing transmission in toddlers can possibly have a major effect on the speed of spread through the community overall.

i agree this will likely not have a significant macro public health effect (not least because very few under fives will get it), but i also don't think my getting the flu shot has a significant macro effect. i still do it though because i don't want to get people sick.

i mean, no, this will not have a big macro effect on the pandemic

6 month to 5 year old vaccination is a really big deal for some people but it's hard to imagine that many parents are actually going to do go through with it https://t.co/JaayDWpjqZ

— Matthew Zeitlin (@MattZeitlin) February 1, 2022

I definitely know people who are still basically home-bound/isolating because of their little kids?

xp Plus a lot of the headache I've seen with people right now is reacting to their kids testing positive & scrambling to meet quarantine requirements, finding childcare, and/or the trouble of working around a sick kid at home, whereas if the little kids just never tested positive it would be A LOT EASIER.

who cares who dies

that was a concern of the past

nowadays it's about getting what is yours

I definitely know people who are still basically home-bound/isolating because of their little kids?

right. we're lucky to be a essentially zero risk of losing our jobs, but we're excited to reduce the likelihood we lose a month of daycare and preschool and a month of help from immunocompromised grandparents as covid works its way through our household.

this is wild

https://i.imgur.com/8meNTgU.png

People hear that the US surge has peaked and is receding, but many are so desperate for a break in strict covid discipline that they're eager to act like it is completely over today. Still about 2300 US covid deaths daily and around 150,000 in hospital who test positive for covid. Maybe by the equinox it will have settled back into something much less dire. Not yet.

aimless ... thank you.

Wow @ that data.

I find it very hard to believe 97% of Asian-American 5-12 year olds in New York City are vaccinated.

Wait why? They have the highest rates in every age category.

I'm looking at the spread between white kids in Manhattan and white kids in Staten Island. No other group has that much daylight between the highs and lows.