Floating Points and Pharoah Sanders and London Symphony Orchestra - Promises (2021)

Professor Grumpy otm!

I was surprised how much I enjoyed how it doesn't go anywhere. And then i liked the Sinephro record even more. Am not a jazzer. Just dabble in jazz and ambient. Two great tastes that taste great together.

Thread reminds me of the time I was mad at lo fi study beats. They have their place.

damn, Stew's post is so terrible I think I'll give this record another chance today

Save us Moka!

imago at 6:52 9 Feb 22

I haven't even heard this yet

please don't


Stew's post is exactly what I'm talking about, like it's all about this perception that it's overpraised or intended for some bougie boogeyman middlebrow dickhickhead audience that probably in reality doesn't even exist and I think anyone who thinks Pharoah Sanders sat around thinking about the "6Music" audience (whatever the fuck that is) should get their head examined.

Also who cares if it's overpraised? why do you care?

Fwiw, I have seen it on hardly any specialized jazz or classical lists (one that I know of).

― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 6:44 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

good thing these genres aren't full of pretentious gatekeepers who can't stand when something breaks out of their beloved little elitist fiefdom or has the audacity to engage musicians who aren't "real musicians" like floating points

what does Stanley Crouch think of this?

it's fine if you like this album, I was just sincerely disappointed when I heard it - I thought it would be better than it is.

"This is the kind of thing My Enemies In The Class War would like" is always the funniest angle a music critic can take.

Lol @ Floating Points with Pharoah Sanders and the London Symphony Orchestra featuring cover art by Julie Mehretu being an "anti-elitist" record.

I only listened to this album once and wasn’t a fan, even as a moderately big Pharoah fan…felt like the token jazz pick for people who don’t like jazz, a la Kamasi Washington a few years back. Guess I should play it again so I can feel more confident in my stance but first impression was they conjured up one specific sound and then wrote music around it that doesn’t really do anything particularly interesting.

Ok, I'm fully on team "why is *this* record a lightning rod for bad opinions?" now

I'm also quite uncomfortable with the fetishisation of 50 yo spiritual jazz by collectors and DJs, particularly when there's little engagement with contemporary currents in jazz and improvised music, and Promises seems a product of that discourse.

As pointed out several times in this thread over the last year, the fact that this was Pharoah's project & he sought out Floating Points, not the other way around, puts the lie to this angle. The people whose first instinct is to accuse Floating Points of "fetishizing" the poor helpless old spiritual jazz man are doing exactly what theyre complaining about.

FWIW the only reason I really think and talk about why I don't like this record is that I thought I was going to like it a lot and really wanted to like it.

Yeah, basically. The idea of this project + the praise for it set up high expectations.

i'm surprised how many strawmen / personal attacks are being brought up here — "jazz for people who don't like jazz," "beloved little elitist fiefdom" — you can dig the music or not, you don't have to conjure up a demographic to blame for it

The sensation of being gaslit by hype can be extremely hard to factor out of one's response to music so I have sympathy with those pouring extra salt on this given how it's been presented

yeah no shit louis

Lol @ Floating Points with Pharoah Sanders and the London Symphony Orchestra featuring cover art by Julie Mehretu being an "anti-elitist" record.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 8:14 AM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i didn't say it was anti-elitist, there are different kinds of elitists and you know the kind i was referring to

also it's not a strawman when stew and zacata are literally doing that IN THIS THREAD

otm lol I misread crut's post because I thought he was complaining about the strawmen in Stew's and zacata's posts

very much including myself here, but there I can't think of anyone on this borad who I find particularly persuasive or insightful when writing about music negatively. or maybe I just trust my own taste more than I used to

"This Third Stream orchestral jazz fusion record didn't get the same acclaim from jazz and classical critics that it did from pop critics only because the former are all pretentious gatekeepers" does seem like a strawman to me.

I'm just glad that, with this album, jazz as a genre has finally reached maturity, one might call it the "Sgt. Pepper's of jazz"

i know we're talking about pharoah sanders and jazz but as a side point i never really connected with what floating points is doing. keiren hebden is a demonstrably interesting artist though, and lumping them together is lazy. i don't have an opinion on this record.

I don't think there are many jazz "gatekeepers" left anymore, it's pretty standard in the jazz world that all kinds of crossovers are the norm.

tbf stew & zacata are each specifically saying in so many words that one of the main reasons they dont like because of the people they imagine like it: "I only listened to this album once... felt like the token jazz pick for people who don’t like jazz", "my main beef has been with the marketing and the gushing praise"... i'm trying to think of a more otm definition of 'gatekeeping' than that

"Stew's post is exactly what I'm talking about, like it's all about this perception that it's overpraised or intended for some bougie boogeyman middlebrow dickhickhead audience that probably in reality doesn't even exist and I think anyone who thinks Pharoah Sanders sat around thinking about the "6Music" audience (whatever the fuck that is) should get their head examined.

Also who cares if it's overpraised? why do you care?"

Well, I care that it got way more coverage than any number of far better jazz records that came out last year. Same as it ever was you might say, but it's a shame nonetheless.

I'm aware it was Pharoah's project and I'm not try to deny his agency. He's made some other mediocre records, so be it.

I don't think PS sat around thinking about a particular audience, but Luaka Bop's marketing department certainly did! Which is fine, it's their job. And obviously one shouldn't over-generalise, but it's no secret that BBC 6Music is intended for a particular demographic.

I wasn't accusing FP directly of fetishisation, just making an observation about a tendency within collector/DJ/reissue culture to overpraise rare records. And by extension certain artists who sprinkle a superficial bit of spiritual jazz on their not-particularly-interesting music to give it a bit of authenticity.

"good thing these genres aren't full of pretentious gatekeepers who can't stand when something breaks out of their beloved little elitist fiefdom or has the audacity to engage musicians who aren't "real musicians" like floating points"

Whole lot of projection going on there! I'd never accuse an electronic artist of not being a "real musician". I just have no time for middlebrow coffee table guff. Furthermore, I don't think anyone who's seen my work could accuse me of elitism or wanting to keep jazz a secret.

FWIW I really like some of the Kieran Hebden/Steve Reid material, as far as "middlebrow" electronic artists collabing with older jazz dudes.

I'm not imaging anything - I've seen the comments made by real people! Some of whom are close friends. I can get why people like it. But I also understand how it's been marketed.

"I Love Marketing"

xp
what is your work? genuine q, I have no idea what you do / who you are

I'm forgetting my full name isn't in the handle. Write for The Wire, Bandcamp, We Jazz among other things.

I have been perhaps a bit vociferous in my posts, but when it comes down to it, the real reason for my bad feelings is that I *like* Floating Points and I *LOVE* Pharaoh Sanders, yet I am consistently underwhelmed by this record. The praise for it only makes me feel weirder toward it, especially because it makes me feel the need to justify my opinion... which I don't need to do!

Hebden is more interesting than FP, but that's a low bar ;) He's done some ok stuff, but it never goes hard enough for me.

table otm even though he hates my children and all other children

yalta.jpg

I think it's swell that some of my friends who usually only have time for yelpy indie or glossy pop checked this out. They certainly wouldn't have if I was just recommending it myself, like most of the shit I like and don't have anyone to share enthusiasm with. Kudos to the marketing departments responsible. Accessible middlebrow coffee table guff is a great gateway drug. For example, think about all the kids diving down ambient music rabbit holes because of the Minecraft soundtrack? Maybe because of this they'll all discover those "better" genre albums soon. Many won't, but some will get hooked.

That's fair - we all need our gateways and I'm sure that Promises will have turned a few people onto Black Unity, Thembi et al.

It actually surprises me that pop/indie listeners find this accessible. It's an extended composition without that much in the way of hooks or grooves, even compared to a lot of other jazz or classical releases.

I really believe all the extramusical "cool" factors are sustaining their interest where otherwise you'd be correct.

It's the ambient thing innit?

It is, I think!

what does Stanley Crouch think of this?

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 5:59 AM

this is king of rhetorical questions on this topic.

Wow this is not the record I would have ever thought would kick off this kind of vitriol.

I like that this thread is basically the same 7 posts on a loop

It actually surprises me that pop/indie listeners find this accessible. It's an extended composition without that much in the way of hooks or grooves, even compared to a lot of other jazz or classical releases.

― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 9:27 AM (twenty-one minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I really believe all the extramusical "cool" factors are sustaining their interest where otherwise you'd be correct.

― Evan, Wednesday, February 9, 2022 9:32 AM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I think calm music has been much more popular in the last few years (for obvious reasons, i find that so with myself as well)

though it's jazz i think it recalls music for airports (the meditative repeated theme) more than a lot of jazz, so i'd say it fits with the general popularity of ambient

I like that this thread is basically the same 7 posts on a loop

― rob, Wednesday, February 9, 2022 10:50 AM (two minutes ago)

if only Dorian still posted here

Hebden is more interesting than FP, but that's a low bar ;) He's done some ok stuff, but it never goes hard enough for me.

― Composition 40b (Stew), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 3:16 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

fair point. i think the hardest he goes is with more club-focused edits and stuff under "percussions" and some other name i'm forgetting, those have a nice raw feel. but i like him because he has a great sense of what is a hook, which is probably not what you're looking for.

There's room for coffee table dad-jazz AND edgy new work, it's not like this record is taking someone else's spot. I feel like the words "London Symphony Orchestra" are adding a lot of weight (perceived prestige & expectations) too...I bet if it was just billed as a duo collab with Pharoah & Floating Points then people wouldn't be nearly so irate.

This doesn't sound like coffee table Dad-jazz to me, though. Honestly, Julian Lage and Avataar might be closer to that description and I preferred those. Anyway, I'm saving the real vitriol for when Boomkat-classical starts topping polls.

Boomkat-classical

the real grifters, yeah?