Doctor Who: Classic or Dud?

i do however agree with you on the edwardian clothing stuff

XP I do trust that if there is a black Doctor there is an adequately diverse writing team dealing with what a black skinned alien would have to deal with on a daily basis. Just like I hope there was a writing team that understood the female experience for the last incarnation.
Hope we are moving away from the white male gaze like.
Hope that is coupled with an ability to write though.

Did wonder if the dismissal letter was writing from an overly white gaze and not understanding how a Doctor as a non monolithic individual would really see things.

Also wondering about the incarnation in a very different skin or gender is experienced. If a person is actually going to understand what it is like to be another person or if they are always going to be an individual in the wrong skin. Like a transexual is trying to find the body that fits themselves as they perceive themselves better. I had the thought when studying philosophy 20 years ago and we were talking about THomas Nagel's What is It Like To Be A Bat and how possible it was to understand what the consciousness of a very different being would be, if it was actually possible. I thought it was always going to be difficult because one was never going to actually fully inhabit the existence of the other being one was trying to imagine the consciousness of. Like one would always be there as a visitor, not resident.

Thanks AKM

Looking forward to seeing how this is handled.

steveolende, that letter is written by a twitter comedy shitposter, it is very clearly very funny (and gets funnier) as you read on....

Yeah, Curtis Cook is a stand-up/tv writer from the Pacific Northwest.

So you mean it isn't written by Russell Davis in November of this year. & they don't really have time travel so it actually isn't real.

Hadn't come across Cook before.

Somehow had the idea that Cook might be a character invented as an in joke by the writing team which put a weird spin on things.
THough really not sure when writing is going to start for this, if there is still one more Jodie isn't there?

someone will know better than me but i think there's another special in August. maybe the new year show will be the regeneration.

imdb had a centenary special in 2022 with Jodie (and ace and tegan) and then 14.1 with the new bloke in nov 2023

So we've got another year and a bit before we can get Ncuti to give us a spin. Want to know what his style's like . & if he is a woke Afro-Galifreyan or if the idea of wokeness is going to be a stereotypical trope that is best avoided instead of the nuanced thing it started out as. The way of navigating one's way through the levels of other people's consciousness etc.

Did think the hair colour he had during the announcement might lead to him rethinking that and becoming the first ginger doctor. But that might just be a stage too far.

twirl probably better than spin.

New special announced on rtd’s insta

Also some information on the BBC - I really liked these two together in their season, but RTD ground most of my fondness for this Doctor to dust by the end.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/2022/doctor-who-david-tennant-and-catherine-tate-return

I always wondered if RTD stole “I don’t want to go” from Reaper Man. Not that it’s not a common phrase obvs

this seems to indicate they'll be back for an anniversary special, right? excellent. some of the all time best doctor/companion chemistry ever there.

Can absolutely see the benefit of a big gesture reminding the public that they used to have some affection for this show

totally. very smart imo.

I like Jodie so would have liked to be more engaged by her tenure as the doctor. Hope she gets something she can make iconic in the near future.
I'm hoping that the fact that the Doctor will have been both female, black and black female does mean that the character can be anything in future and these aren't going to be oh well we've been there, did it work? Best not try that again or anything.

i think the main takeaway from the J.Whittaker years is that it is super hard for an actor to make the role work unless they get something to work with?

like, i can see the reasoning behind wanting to try a Doctor without a tortured backstory or whatever - because admittedly that seemed to work fine in the 70s and 80s - but I guess it shows how much, say, Troughton, Pertwee and Baker brought to the table. they also frequently had great lines and character bits or rapport with their companions - Whittaker just has this sense of bland niceness with occasional resort to a low key zany register.

I don’t know, does any other franchise have an disaster equivalent to the Chibnall years? I feel if this were American TV he would have been hooked offstage at the end of his first season, but here everyone is being awfully diplomatic about it.

he had a contract. there wasn't much that could have been done besides grin and bear it

I did read that the diversity of the writing team grew under him which is probably about time. So really hoping that that is something that survives him. & is given a chance to grow and come up with something worthwhile. Just hope it doesn't get siloed in with the negativity of his tenure or anything. Hope progress is a continual growth in one or several directions and can't be cut off but maybe that's just a hope.

i think the main takeaway from the J.Whittaker years is that it is super hard for an actor to make the role work unless they get something to work with?

I did read that the diversity of the writing team grew under him which is probably about time.

Yeah, I do have to give Chibnall some credit as a producer - he very meaningfully moved the levels of behind-the-camera diversity forward, to often excellent effect - his run has often LOOKED amazing, and we've had some great new directing talent on the show. Also, the guest casting has been very diverse and also excellent - to the point where the guest cast were basically the only thing that kept pulling me back to Flux week-on-week.

It's the sloppy bargain-basement first draft writing that sinks it, and often craters everyone else's efforts (cast/crew etc). And the sense that his overall approach to Doctor Who was to treat it as a (often very worthwhile) to-do list - female Doctor, less London-centric, greater topicality to stories, some genuinely brilliant decisions about where to set historicals - all overdue and necessary, but with no accompanying creative vision or storytelling inspiration as to what to do with those things. All that effort, expended on... telling a story where the Cybermen invade Gallifrey.

I think 13’s run is on par with 7’s in terms of overall wualjty

lol quality, why does autocorrect only intervene when I don’t want it to

Now I want to dream of what Wualjty is, what kind of planetary society exists on it, and when the next Doctor will visit.

Wualjty sure, quality no way

Some pics of Tennant/Tate on set have leaked, prob why they made that announcement on their return earlier

I don’t know, does any other franchise have an disaster equivalent to the Chibnall years? I feel if this were American TV he would have been hooked offstage at the end of his first season, but here everyone is being awfully diplomatic about it.

Loads of Star Trek series, both vintage (TOS and TNG) and ongoing, have had a lot of creative upheavals and behind the scenes drama.

Interestinger and interestinger

https://www.doctorwhonews.net/2022/05/yasmin_finney_joins_doctor_who.html

cool!

Huh, she actually looks a little like Billie Piper!

>Loads of Star Trek series, both vintage (TOS and TNG) and ongoing, have had a lot of creative upheavals and behind the scenes drama.

Yeh - I don't have much production-side knowledge of Trek (enjoying the current show a lot tho!) - but I remember there was a lot of creative stagnation around Voyager/Enterprise era. Maybe analogous to the mid-JNT/Saward era of too much fan service and not enough influence from outside the franchise bubble?

Would be fascinated to read an informed critical post-mortem on the Chibnall era though. I can see why a lot of decisions - including hiring the guy - would've looked good on paper. But surely alarm bells should've started going off after that first season? I know that the Capaldi saw a decline in ratings but it was clearly sparking creatively. Ultimately there's no getting around that Chibnall's previous DW (and Torchwood) episodes were all pretty uninspiring. And while acknowledging the diversity gains during his tenure, maybe an ultimately more meaningful and renewing diversity hire would've been a non middle-aged white TV journeyman showrunner?*

*Having said this, I still endorse the Return of RTD as a much-needed course correction/salvage operation!

Broadchurch being such a massive hit is probably the major reason why Chibnall got the job, I suppose?

Yeah, I do have to give Chibnall some credit as a producer - he very meaningfully moved the levels of behind-the-camera diversity forward, to often excellent effect - his run has often LOOKED amazing, and we've had some great new directing talent on the show. Also, the guest casting has been very diverse and also excellent - to the point where the guest cast were basically the only thing that kept pulling me back to Flux week-on-week.

It's the sloppy bargain-basement first draft writing that sinks it, and often craters everyone else's efforts (cast/crew etc). And the sense that his overall approach to Doctor Who was to treat it as a (often very worthwhile) to-do list - female Doctor, less London-centric, greater topicality to stories, some genuinely brilliant decisions about where to set historicals - all overdue and necessary, but with no accompanying creative vision or storytelling inspiration as to what to do with those things. All that effort, expended on... telling a story where the Cybermen invade Gallifrey.

The move to bring more diversity into the series was laudable, but it's just gesturing towards wokeness unless the writing is on point to back it up, which all too often under Chibnall it hasn't been. All too often his episodes have been hesitant to take a political position on anything, and when they have it's usually been in an incredibly ham-handed way - like having a villain that's basically just Trump who likes telling people "You're fired," (do you see?), or doing an episode inspired by Amazon which basically comes out on the side of the corporations. This kind of cowardice unfortunately is reflected in the writing of the Doctor, who in this era rarely takes a moral stance in any situation, which is pretty much antithetical to any version of the character that's come before.

It's so frustrating, because this could've been the most radical and challenging era of the show, but was stuck with a showrunner who was completely incapable of realising it.

Oh yeah, 100% agree it's a bust on a creative level - to the extent that the 13th Doctor seems quite comfortable taking right wing positions on a whole range of issues!

I just think it's worth putting on record that from an industry point of view * the push to diversify the off-camera talent is significant and worthwhile in that a whole bunch of people will have had their careers jumpstarted or boosted by working on a show with the scale and budget and prominence of Doctor Who. It's not an easy thing to do given the pressures of making the show, and largely why previous show runners tended to a "get your mates in" approach that kept the writing and directing teams whiter and male-r for longer than that should have been.

It's so frustrating, because this could've been the most radical and challenging era of the show, but was stuck with a showrunner who was completely incapable of realising it.

Couldn't agree more with this.

* a view I'm perhaps disproportionately interested in cos I work in TV!

Is what is being filmed with Tennant and Tate early Gatwa episodes, I have no idea of timing with this. I was just wondering if it was still too early to tell what the writing teams for RTD would be since it was still something in the future. Am just hoping that there isn't going to be a backward step there.
But would hope if Doctor is black there would also be diversity in the writing team. I'm assuming whoever was writing under Chibnall is no longer under contract when he goes. But not sure of protocols etc. & anybody particularly noteworthy would be likely to be rehired not bound to be retained.

Unrelatedly, Moffat's adaptation of Time Traveller's Wife might be the worst thing he's done, sadly

(I also hated the book.)

@emsworth -

https://www.escapistmagazine.com/grand-unified-theory-chris-chibnall-doctor-who-era-jodie-whittaker/

also, from the same guy -

https://them0vieblog.com/2022/04/18/doctor-who-legend-of-the-sea-devils-review/

So is Yasmine Finney playing a different character called Rose, or the same character that Billie Piper played previously? The reports I've read seem curiously ambiguous on that point. Is RTD keeping it that way deliberately?

yep

I thought I'd heard it confirmed somewhere they are playing Donna's daughter

@emsworth -

https://www.escapistmagazine.com/grand-unified-theory-chris-chibnall-doctor-who-era-jodie-whittaker/

Great article thanks TH - very impressive good faith attempt to engage with the material, with a very dispiriting conclusion.

And soref, 100% agree that Broadchurch would've indicated a "safe pair of hands" to the BBC decision makers - like I say, he would've looked perfect on paper. But I feel like a substantial section of fandom always had misgivings based on his prior contributions? Like the most optimistic take I remember seeing was a hope that he would slough off his mediocrity and rise to the occasion. There have also been various reports that Chibnall was not in fact particularly keen on taking the role? Anyway, I find the whole sorry affair super interesting, and look forward to someone writing a book about it!

Every indication seems to suggest that he grudgingly took on the job after much persuasion, just so the series wouldn't end up going on hiatus again because there were no other candidates willing to shoulder the burden at that point (other more promising candidates like Gatiss and Whithouse having turned it down).

other more promising candidates like Gatiss

sad lol, but like, where's the lie.

Definitely of the opinion that no Who is better than bad just-because Who. I would’ve been curious about Whithouse based on broadly enjoying his scripts - I remember reading somewhere that the failure of The Game tanked his chances with the BBC, but perhaps the other way round - if he turned down Who based on an unhappy experience as show runner. Would be a tough gig for sure.

>Loads of Star Trek series, both vintage (TOS and TNG) and ongoing, have had a lot of creative upheavals and behind the scenes drama.

Yeh - I don't have much production-side knowledge of Trek (enjoying the current show a lot tho!) - but I remember there was a lot of creative stagnation around Voyager/Enterprise era. Maybe analogous to the mid-JNT/Saward era of too much fan service and not enough influence from outside the franchise bubble?

I'd say the current Alex Kurtzman era has been about as bad as Chibnall's Who run. They did TWO time travel seasons that didn't make any sense!

The current era was already in turmoil before they even started production on the first episode of the first series! Which, TBH, is very much a Trek tradition.

Next Blu-ray set has a locked release date, and the contents have similarly been locked in, with 5,889 pages of documents including 4/6 of the scripts for Slipback - 93pp total - and the draft script for what became Attack Of The Cybermen ep 1, which Paula Woolsey apparently turned in at 112pp.


There doesn't seem to have been any turmoil behind the scenes of Chibnall's Who at all (unless you count COVID, which almost certainly isn't his fault) - it's just plodded along from script to screen without any reported disruption (nb that "made up by misogynist youtubers" /= "reported")


(other more promising candidates like Gatiss and Whithouse having turned it down).

Both Gatiss and Whithouse have consistently claimed that they were never approached (but Gatiss said that he would have turned it down, having seen what the stress did to his friend).

Whithouse would have barely been a step above Chibnall anyway, RIP Jamie Mathieson.


New special announced on rtd’s insta

Nah, RTD doing the 60th anniversary ("and series beyond") was part of the initial press run back in September -- but I wonder / hope if them shooting a full production block now means that he's planning extra specials before then; perhaps for/from NYD, given the non-specific specificity of saying "2023"? It would be great if they get the backwards-looking Tennant/Tate/Wilf stuff wrapped up with holiday special/s and let Ncuti launch properly for the 60th, initiating a new era unencumbered by nostalgia.

-- for Tracer: (Legend Of The Sea Devils) just missed the top ten on overnights, edged out by a repeat of Antiques Roadshow on BBC2

on +7, turned out the #3 for the day, #1 from any BBC channel. The Antiques Roadshow ep ended up outside the top 50.

― beepy fridges (sic), Wednesday, April 27, 2022 4:36 PM (three weeks ago)

+28: 3,698,000 - lowest-rated of nu-Who by about a milli, equal 4th-lowest of all time, #25 for the week.

lol @ the idea anyone on this board would go toe-to-toe with stevolende on fashion bricolage

...toe-to-toe? Tracer, I genially disputed your assessment that Edwardianish clothing was traditional for the set of Doctors up to Jodie Whittaker, and posted some pleasant images reminding us all that there are Doctors who did not initially, did not primarily, or did not ever wear a frock-coat and a string tie.

Someone else then threw out a bunch of personal attacks, unsettling conspiracy theories, wild projection, ahistorical claims of childhood memory trumping evidence, etc, and you're...crowing that I've been physically bested?

(how could Andrew have been "obviously gaslighting"? by travelling back in time to alter the costuming in one or two hundred Who episodes, in between posts? and is it simply thinking true things that makes him habitually creepy on ILX, or is there some other pattern of behaviour being cited as reason for the accusation?)

The extreme personal unpleasantness aside, this is pretty odd behaviour.

RTD’s review of the final Chibnall special:

He said: "It's like a 10-year-old's fantasy version of Doctor Who but with muscle and punch and light and colour."