― Mike Hanle y, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― 1 1 2 3 5, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Related question: how do opinions change? I've found that turning people onto something requires describing/highlighting innate musical qualities and relating those to said persons' tastes. Turning someone OFF something, on the other hand, usually ends up being a worldview discussion. So I might get you to like Blu Cantrell 'coz of the harmonic runs in the chorus, but to get you to dislike the song, I'd have to point out how as the video closes it was all a dream and she goes back to him. Thoughts?
― Sterling Clover, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ally, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Michael Daddino, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― matthew m., Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tom, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
matthew, i would love 4 u to present an actual example of this happening on the forum before u go on to dismiss the discussions occurring here as such. i have never seen an all caps argument here (aside from the odd one off poster who happens here by accident), and to dismiss the posters here as that kind of ignorant all caps spewing malcontent seems grossly unfair.
― junichiro, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Sean, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Frank Kogan, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
In this context, hating bands without cause CAN make you a better listener/critic of the ones you DO make time for.
― Curt, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
This is insane. The only honest way in which N'Sync's effects upon society can be explored is for people to publish their personal reactions to N'Sync's music. The notion that what constitutes positive or negative social change is "objective" is just a wee bit fascist, don't you think? Am I misunderstanding you? I'm certainly not here to be "collectively convinced" of anything. I want to read about what other people think about music. Nothing could possibly suck more life out of ILM than an extended meta-discussion of what ILM should or shouldn't be, or a bunch of rules meant to clarify the data for your personal hypotheses.
― Kris, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
On the Roxette thread, the person who introduced the, um, concept of "She sucks and so do you for liking them" did so in an amusing and actively self-deprecatory way. Step forward Alex in NYC: who arrived at ILM PRECISELY because ILM en mass had declared the obvious suckage of his Big Love, Killing Joke. He enjoyed the fight, and stayed. ie His judgment, which (assuming I'm reading it right) seems to me much rational a threatened tantrum-exit if we don't all speak in the proper hushed and respectful manner — was that Ill-informed Hostility towards his Beloved would tell him something about that Beloved he hadn't thought of, and thus something abt himself. (sorry Alex in NYC, to sit here analysing you: swoop in and demolish me when I'm thru). Sometimes you have to pass *thru* the suXoR-yell stage to get to understanding: if you disallow it competely, you also disallow circulation of actual feelings, in favour of endless subterranean worries abt Korrekt Etiquette. If you *always* run away from someone else's rage or fright or panic or incomprehension, you probably won't ever have anything *that* useful to say about what they're reacting so extremely to.
― mark s, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I dunno, I think we should have way more discussions about rules. It cracks me up endlessly. I think I should start making all my personal real life discussions with people EXACTLY like this meta crap.
(random closing thought; i've made some rather vitrolic comments about nirvana before, but i just realized how my (and 11235's) beck stories are startlingly similar to all those nirvana tales i always hear from twenty-somethings about how their entire world being opened up by the band, and so in the future i'll try and lay off a little)
― ethan, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Mitch Lastnamewithheld, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
First rule: Originality and "soul" don't count for shit when you're criticizing music after noon!!!
HAHA, BECK RULES NOW!!! I WIN!!!
― alex in montreal, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
-To answer Tom's initial question, hating bands irrationally is (or can be) fun, and I think that really it's more the smug goes-without-saying dismissals I have a problem with. Irrational dismissals can get pretty boring themselves though - I hate when it gets too high school-like, one guy saying that Bon Jovi rools and Def Leppard are faggots and pussies, the next guy saying the exact opposite, neither of them capable of discussing WHY that is the case. But I certainly don't think people should try not to hate - know what you love (and why), know what you hate (and why).
- "hype"/image/overexposure is not a lame-ass reason. It's the social aspect of art coming into play.
I fail to see how dismissing the Strokes for being hyped or Macy Gray for getting critical approval is any different from attacking teen-pop for being manufactured - all those judgments cut the actual sounds on the actual records out of the picture.
- I love Ninjasquid's post about her discovery of Beck.
- I wonder what music that purports to represent Frank Kogan would sound like.
― Patrick, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― bnw, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Can I jump in and conclude that maybe the reasons for hating a given artist are a combination of haters' aesthetic/musical tastes and their resentment at the artist being overhyped? Disregarding the specific choices, doesn't it make sense that a combination of (subjectively perceived) awful music and inexplicable hype would make an object of hate more hateworthy than the sum of its parts?
You can say the same for manufactured pop as well, but a lot of anti-pop people admit quite openly that they'll hate any manufactured group or artist on principle, or alternatively reason that it's the manufactured-ness of the music that makes it unlikable. I guess it's possible to hate an artist for being manufactured while liking another artist despite their being manufactured to the same degree or greater (or even because of it), but it's logically inconsistent and it undermines the power of the anti-manufactured argument.
― Tim, Wednesday, 1 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
That's not what I meant at all.
Roughly speaking, what I objected wasn't that people say things like "I like Beck because he mixes acoustic and electronic musics, uses samples in a deft manner, is surreal, etc." Rather, what I object to is when people say "I think Beck is a pioneer because he mixes acoustic and electronic musics, uses samples in a deft manner, is surreal, etc."
Calling someone a pioneer or copycat demands a reasonably thorough sense of cultural history; calling someone good or bad doesn't.
Me too. Musical epiphanies: classic.
Can any music be successfully sold to the masses today on the basis that it's FAKE? Or NOVEL? Can't think of any right now, but I have a boring meeting to go to now to chew this over."
The KLF made a career out of doing just that. I seriously recommend reading any of their printed material. Their thoughts on the industry are pretty on the money.
― Michael Taylor, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― matthew m., Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― dave q, Thursday, 2 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 3 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Patrick, unless the tapes got lost in the mail, you've heard music that purports to represent Frank Kogan. But lots of music, some good, some bad, purports to represent Frank Kogan, from the arid frozen heights of "Happy Birthday" to the swampy depths of "Jingle Bells." And of course there's Blind Willie Johnson's classic "John the Revelator" - though I don't know how he got my name wrong! I said "Frank" quite clearly, was even going to write it down for him until I realized that to do so was pointless. I think he was visited the same day by John the Piano Turner, and that's what caused the confusion.
― Frank Kogan, Monday, 6 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Patrick, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nude Spock, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I mean it ultimately becomes impossible to argue about this because you just dismiss any reason and say "oh but thats not about the music/film/whatever" as if the context of the music/film/whatever was totally unimportant. Nobody here dislikes [band] because it is 'cool' to dislike [band], they dislike them initially because they make tedious music. That dislike then becomes fury when the tedious music suddenly becomes a supremely popular cultural touchstone.
If you really think any artist gets a raw deal on ILM then please, please, set a good example and explain why those people are *good* - that's after all what we did to start with on FT and NYLPM, trying to explain why we thought Britney and R'n'B *weren't* the devil's work. But this second-guessing and ghost-chasing after some kind of phantom hipster consensus is getting really old.
― Tom, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― gareth, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I LOVE MUSIC precisely because that's all I care about. The performers mean nothing to me. Lyrics often fall on deaf ears with me, too.
See, this is why I hate this board and love ILE. It's like I don't exist here. This complain about Richie-haters comes up every time Richie's name is mentioned ("You all never explain it beyond he's a wanker/fuckhead/pissbag/whatever"), and every time I explain that I think he's a very smug individual with no talent to back it up. His films are awful, irritating toss with no saving graces besides Brad Pitt. AND him and Madonna make the most obnoxious couple.
― Ally, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Critics of music critics seem preoccupied with the idea that music critics don't really enjoy music, and that any enjoyment of the music must fit into a discrete area of inauthentic music enjoyment. It must be because the music is like old music the critic already enjoyed, or because it's 'fun', or 'innovative'. According to the critic of the music critic, these categories of enjoyment are clearly inauthentic - signs of a critically debilitating 'professional' approach to the music - and can be easily contrasted with the critic of the music critic's authentic appreciation of . I think the safest thing people here can do is work on the assumption that everyone here is a music critic. Firstly, because a hell of a lot of people here do it professionally, and secondly - and more importantly - because by writing here you implicate yourself within a critical discourse re music that is both unconscious and inescapable. Unless you limit yourself to "it's just music, man!" posts, you automatically become the enemy of which you speak. And I don't think there's anything wrong with liking music because it's fun, innovative or like other music you already enjoy.― Tim, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
I think the safest thing people here can do is work on the assumption that everyone here is a music critic. Firstly, because a hell of a lot of people here do it professionally, and secondly - and more importantly - because by writing here you implicate yourself within a critical discourse re music that is both unconscious and inescapable. Unless you limit yourself to "it's just music, man!" posts, you automatically become the enemy of which you speak. And I don't think there's anything wrong with liking music because it's fun, innovative or like other music you already enjoy.― Tim, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tim, Thursday, 30 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tim, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Nude Spock, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― ethan, Friday, 31 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link